Podcast With Ann Smarty

Surviving Zero-Click Search: Ann Smarty's Expert Advice

Show Notes

Curious about how SEO is evolving for 2025? 🚀 In this in-depth discussion, we explore the game-changing shifts in the SEO landscape, including the rise of AI, zero-click searches, and strategic opportunities to help your website thrive. Learn actionable SEO strategies, from driving more organic traffic to optimizing for AI-driven search results.

Join Navneet Kaushal and our special guest, Ann Smarty, as we break down the key trends shaping search engine rankings, including how to rank your website number 1, the role of content structure over format, and the importance of brand-building in an AI-first world. Discover step-by-step guides on creating resilient content strategies, understanding Google updates, and leveraging platforms like Reddit to amplify your visibility.

Whether you’re an agency owner, digital marketer, or just starting with SEO, this video is packed with insights to help you stay ahead of the curve. Achieve a #1 ranking, adapt to AI-driven search behavior, and future-proof your SEO strategies today!

👉 Don’t forget to subscribe, like, and share this video for more cutting-edge digital marketing wisdom. Let’s keep learning, growing, and creating impact together!

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro: What to Expect in Today's Episode?

01:03 - Ann's Journey in Search: How Did She Get Started?

09:56 - The Future of SEO: What Trends Should We Anticipate?

11:30 - Surviving Google AI Overviews: How Can Marketers Adapt?

19:39 - Diagnosing Traffic Losses: What Steps Should You Take?

23:00 - Diversifying Traffic and Income: What Strategies Work Best?

27:03 - Winning in the New Search Game: Who Will Come Out on Top?

29:20 - AI and Link Building: How Is the Landscape Changing?

33:14 - Manipulating AI Training Data: Is It Possible for SEOs?

37:10 - E-A-T Optimization: Why Is It Considered Ineffective?

49:00 - Underrated SEO Tools: What Should Every Marketer Know?

54:35 - Preparing for the New Era of Search: What Actions to Take?

59:35 - Brands on Reddit: Why Do Many Fail?

1:07:45 - Rapid Fire Round: Quick Insights from Ann

1:10:15 - Outro: Key Takeaways from Today's Discussion

1:10:53 - Conclusion: What’s Next for the SEO Community?

Transcript

Intro: What to Expect in Today's Episode?

0:00 the future is probably a zero click future I imagine AI will soon not just

0:05 make buying decisions but also being able to buy for the client For the youth if you had to sum up SEO in 2025 in a

0:13 sentence what would it be i think we will be all fine It's not as much about

0:18 content format as about content structure [Applause]

0:24 [Music] [Applause] [Music]

0:34 Hello and welcome to the another episode of the agency insider show I am your host Navnit Koshel and today we have a

0:41 very special guest Someone who is an absolute legend in the world of SEO and digital marketing She's the co-founder

0:47 of Smarty Marketing the former editor and chief at Search Engine Journal and a contributor to Mo Basumo and many more

0:55 If you are in SEO you have definitely read her work or heard her speak Please welcome Annis Marty

Ann's Journey in Search: How Did She Get Started?

1:03 Hi everyone and thank you for having me Name Yes So then let's start with your

1:10 journey in search I mean you've been part of this space for over two decades and not trying to make you feel old I'm

1:16 also been two decades old Uh let's start from the top What first drew you into

1:21 the SEO and digital marketing and how has your journey evolved over the years

1:27 that's a such a long story so I'll make it short I was very bored at my college

1:34 the final couple of years Started looking for a gig to get myself into

1:40 tape Wasn't looking for a career Nothing like that Just something temporal got into an e-commerce little store that

1:48 they were looking for a customer support person and before I knew it I was helping them with SEO link building I

1:57 was they asked me to start a website that was seosmarty.com it's a very old

2:03 one to like share my findings what I've learned about SEO Then in a couple of

2:10 years maybe even less in a few months I became contributor to Mars contributor

2:15 to search engine journal then editor of that it was very early age of SEO it was

2:21 very easy to stand out if you were active it is still doable today but then

2:27 it was like little family of people trying to figure out what to do what's right what's wrong after that I became a

2:34 well-known guest blogger because I was writing all over the web Started my own

2:40 uh project that was facilitating those connections people who were looking for

2:46 contributors and people who were ready to write for someone My blog if you remember that many years ago it was a

2:53 big hit I was known I think I still have that digital footprint of being a

3:00 well-known guest blog Still there not not not giving not giving it like it's

3:07 not getting rid of that So I'm still known as a gas blogger and after that I

3:12 came to United States joined Jim Boyin also a legend in the our industry as his

3:20 um community manager then I became his was analyzing his clients websites He ne

3:27 he was never looking for link builders but he was looking for expertise in SEO

3:33 and content marketing which I fit in perfectly And uh end of 2023 so about 18

3:42 months ago I started my own first agency for SEO They thought it was time In more

3:49 than 20 years I was never caring about getting leads people would just come

3:55 knocking my door asking can you be a YSO and I was like no I'm not doing that as a freelancer So now it's a new new

4:02 adventure for me and that's what that's what I'm heavily into at this point A

4:07 very interesting time to be to be an SEO and to own an SEO agency I can tell you

4:13 that Completely agree I mean I think you were the first person I found who recently

4:19 started an SEO agency I mean not to take away the credit but I mean I would say

4:25 somebody new I mean of course you are old into the game but somebody new starting an SEO agency I'll be a little

4:30 skeptical Yes Yes We I'm lucky to be able to rely on my personal brand for

4:37 sure but still a terrible time Whatever whatever personal my personal brand can

4:42 do it's still limiting I mean yes many people are closing agencies at this

4:47 point and I'm proud enough to have started one but we are very proud at being innovative We are we I've been

4:56 changing with Google for as long as I can remember Google was evolving and I

5:01 was evolving I never stood still at one tactic that I invented 10 or 15 years

5:06 ago It's always changing So I'm continue doing that with my agency as well

5:13 Okay Now uh so you have been an editor tool

5:19 builder writer strategist So which role gave you the biggest learning curve

5:24 oh my god they were all very important and also they were all at different

5:30 points of my career So and if we get to talking about AI

5:36 visibility I will mention why it is not a good thing to have been doing so many

5:41 things because I don't really have one clear expertise You know when people say

5:48 you cannot be good at everything Well sorry I've been doing so much throughout my

5:55 career that I'm really good at many things in SEO and I think I cannot really pinpoint one particular project

6:03 that was the most influential I think step by step all of my ventures were

6:09 contributing to my uh personal brand experience expertise Um so it's a tough

6:16 question I my favorite my favorite um time was when I had my blogist for sure

6:23 That little baby that I was so careful at building It was not perfect way but I

6:29 love the idea I love people who were participating and were brand advocates for me I think that was my favorite time

6:37 Uh feeling like I'm building something special you know that was very very emotionally satisfying Um and it was

6:45 painful to let it go as well but emotionally that was my favorite uh time

6:50 for sure Not sure how much if it was the most influential but definitely the the

6:55 most favorite Yeah but I I think it was one uh website I would definitely myself

7:02 had an account and I would everybody recommend It was something I think it had a different take on how the things

7:08 were being done So I definitely liked registering and finding websites and and

7:14 yes I I love that So is it still out or it has shut down no I sold it a while

7:20 ago Um I didn't feel uh that it could be

7:25 that pure community anymore after Google basically penalized all guest blogging

7:32 efforts and we somehow became not okay Um so and because I'm very I'm for

7:39 ethical marketing for as long as I been in SEO Um and I couldn't be continued

7:46 doing that It was almost like black hat um tactic this which I never agreed to

7:52 because all like you remember we never ever um let anyone pay for those

7:58 articles or pay for links It was all mutual mutually beneficial I still feel

8:04 like I understand why Google did that but I still do not agree that we were doing anything wrong for sure I agree I

8:12 don't think I mean end of day SEO I mean you are trying to build links which

8:18 probably falls into an artificial thing So we all are trying to do that even if I'm doing digital PR in the back of my

8:24 mind I would have links in the AI world I would have brand mentions but yes

8:29 that's exactly but our idea was like we did not try to sneak in those links if

8:36 the publisher wanted the article so the content was good enough for those citations you know for those references

8:42 so it was all based on willingness of both parties to provide and publish Uh

8:50 so yes um I am I'm with you It was abused by many link building companies

8:56 and we were fighting with that as much as we could but also the funny story is

9:01 that it was caused by Matt Cuts remember him from Google at some point some of

9:07 his videos uh it was 2013 I think he he

9:12 was asked he allowed people to ask him questions So someone asked if guest blogging is okay for link building and

9:19 he said yes I don't see anything wrong with it and guess what happened next day we were flooded with link building

9:25 agencies like everyone like it's if it's okay you know how it goes I mean I have no complaints I made a lot of money from

9:32 pro memberships at that point but it definitely ruined the quality the

9:37 overall concept of guest blogging for just relationships for like personal

9:42 branding definitely there were a lot of link building at that link builders at that point using the platform which it

9:49 is what it is it's how the industry pivots so we have to to go with flow

The Future of SEO: What Trends Should We Anticipate?

9:56 now of course we are almost midway into 2025 now if you have to sum up SEO in

10:02 2025 in a sentence what would it be

10:07 collapse and it's not my personal perspective I

10:15 personally do not go with the hype I think it will all stabilize just a little turn turn around the corner We

10:22 will we will get focused and organized and but the whole perspective

10:30 uh of people are losing traffic and crying at every corner Oh my god it's

10:36 the end of the web It's the end of SEO I'm not going to invest money in SEO

10:41 anymore because there are no clicks All of that is literally um creating that

10:47 concept of disruption and the end of some the the end of the era um which

10:54 again I'm not I'm not at that mindset I think we will be all fine It's still

11:00 organic discoverability organic findability We will be fine It's all the executives all the people who do not

11:08 deeply understand what is going on and just pulling budgets away reading all

11:13 those scary articles how Google is stealing clicks and ending SEO and all

11:20 of that is definitely something we have to cope with while we were we are fine again Right on the topic of Google

Surviving Google AI Overviews: How Can Marketers Adapt?

11:30 stealing clicks and let's move to our next segment which is of course surviving Google AI overviews

11:37 So uh I mean let's talk about the elephant in the room now Google AI overviews You you have written and

11:43 spoken a lot about how these are shaking up organic traffic How serious is this

11:48 shift and what do you see as the biggest risk and opportunities for agencies and brands right now

11:55 so I have answers for most business models but publishing businesses uh they

12:01 rely on clicks too much From experience uh looking at my clients looking at

12:07 other SEO agencies that talk about their clients those last clicks are not really

12:14 impacting the bottom line And I'm I'm explain So first of all AI overviews is

12:20 the summary of search results that give a very detailed very satisfying answer

12:28 Sometime it's wrong It's not perfect for sure In many cases it's wrong It's very easily confused but it's getting better

12:35 Let's let's let's add that there And also there is AI mode now that is very

12:41 similar to AI overviews in a separate tab but and um we are probably a few

12:47 months away from it to go global and at some point it may become the default tab

12:53 for Google search So we have to for that too So what is happening there is that

12:58 most people seeing the detailed answer giving them everything they needed do

13:06 not click anywhere even if there are links in inside the answer or to the

13:11 right of the answer people just don't need to click right if you think about

13:18 that if some if those people are satisfied by that quick answer they

13:24 would not convert on your side anyways That was their goal They got they got

13:30 the quick answer and they left So if that is that is what they needed that

13:36 click is not much to to lose right it's not going to convert anyways That's why

13:42 conversions are not as impacted as clicks at this point What I suggest to

13:47 my clients is to change content marketing strategy for those um articles

13:54 and to be not as easy to summarize so that people would still need to click

14:01 So first it's focusing on queries that are complex

14:07 probably with commercial intent but not necessarily Google refers to those uh

14:12 queries as do queries That's when people search for something not to find

14:17 information but to do something It could be follow the instructions It could be DIY It could be buy It could be any

14:25 action not necessarily commercial again Right so what you do on your site is

14:30 create the instruction that cannot be easily summarized that include steps

14:36 adding pictures of whatever you need um videos all those very complicated and

14:42 very useful very helpful instruction and that will get it click anyway And what

14:48 happens people who want to do something will not be first satisfied with a quick answer Even if they see it they will

14:54 still need to look for detailed instructions And two if you put your products in that context of solving the

15:03 problem problem solution type of content it's the best content right now you can create that will be eaten by AI

15:12 platforms by LLMs and you will be cited there as well So you put your products

15:17 in the relevant problem solution content that helps on on both runs It brings um

15:24 qualified leads people who want to follow those instructions and they will convert in many ways and two that

15:32 increases visibility in NLMs too So that is the best content But that's not the only thing You can also generate clicks

15:39 in other ways It could be original research surveys It could be tools It

15:46 could be something that cannot be easily summarized and still require a click to

15:51 your site to accomplish something to find out something to engage with your

15:56 site or to use the tool Uh that would be still bringing clicks but again clicks

16:03 will still go down even more with AI mode It is going to happen It has been

16:08 happening for about 10 years now featured snippets were were leaking clicks uh because they gave great

16:15 answers People's ask were just keeping people on the site All those calculators

16:20 quick answers Everything that Google showed was already stealing clicks So we've been seeing that for many years

16:28 now It's just a little bit more dramatic this year Um nothing to lose your mind

16:33 over Focus on what matters focus on people you want to bring on your site and uh continue with what with in that

16:41 direction right now So are there any uh content

16:48 formats you think are more resilient in this new AI first u uh SCP environment

16:56 it's not much it's not as much about content format as about content

17:02 structure But again um let's talk let's differentiate what the goal uh is

17:09 whether it gets clicks It's one goal Again it's much more difficult these

17:16 days than it was even two years ago And two if we want to be findable in answers

17:23 as well as part of the solution even without links you know when you ask best

17:29 retailers to buy shoes Chia GPD AI mode AI overviews will just

17:36 give you the list of the solutions without linking to them There's no clicks from those answers But as a brand

17:44 selling shoes you want to be part of that answer anyways So at this point the

17:50 goal of online findability is dual not necessarily it is about clicks Um so the

18:00 content format um continue with diversification I've always been for

18:06 diversification of content because it open ups more channels It ranks you in

18:11 Google images Google videos YouTube Instagram whatever your tra whatever

18:17 your company is cares about With content diversification it's much more effective

18:23 So continue experimenting with all kinds of formats and types Structure your

18:28 content the way that it is easy for AI to basically steal it

18:36 But the most important part here is making your products t part of that well

18:45 ststructured clear content that you want AI to steal and then they will steal it

18:51 together with understanding what your product does and you have much more chances to be in those answers as well

18:58 So traffic is of course still nice to have We still work on that but being the

19:05 part of the answer is also very important and that's when you write an article make sure that in nonpromotional

19:11 way one of the steps two of the steps will detail how your brand your product

19:19 whatever you're selling is solving that particular problem and that particular step helps with that particular step and

19:26 that will be part of AI training data it will be part of

19:32 Google's knowledge base index It helps on many levels

Diagnosing Traffic Losses: What Steps Should You Take?

19:39 Okay Now uh of course many agencies are seeing sudden drop in organic traffic So

19:45 what's your framework for diagnosing and responding to these losses especially when it's due to algorithm changes or AI

19:52 overview i mean there it has so many things have happened in so little time

20:01 So starting with the first helpful content update in 2023 which there was no confirmed recovery

20:09 yet from So starting from there there were all mystical things happening

20:16 Core algorithm updates AI overviews then AI overviews going uh public then the

20:23 view is going global then another core update then something else every every

20:29 month we saw something happening So diagnosing is really an issue at this point First

20:37 of all everyone lost traffic I have yet to see at least one website who gained

20:43 traffic or at least didn't lose any No no one Um what I would right now focus

20:49 on um instead of diagnosing what happened because seriously we don't have

20:55 fixes for whatever happened There is no recovery route from helpful content

21:01 update There is no recovery route from core algorithm update Only theories

21:07 Theories Well if you improve your usability you should be fine In in in

21:13 essence we don't have any confirmed tactics to recover from those So instead

21:20 of trying to diagnose what and when happened you will see traffic losses a

21:26 lot throughout the past two years I would focus on what you have now and

21:32 where to go from here Instead of recovery you are changing the way you're

21:38 providing you're creating content You are changing the way you're building links You are seeing yourself ranking on

21:46 number two for a great keyword and you think that that could be an opportunity

21:52 So work on that page Try to make it better more helpful whatever you call it

21:57 So I would stop paying agencies for diagnosis of whatever happened

22:04 throughout these two years and just start from fresh and just do the fresh

22:09 start on what you have now Focus on what you have now because everyone is

22:15 struggling Trust me you are not alone We are all in the same boat And what

22:20 matters is how we go from here Whether we just quit whether we adopt something

22:26 new listen to people who talk about create what matters now and will matter

22:32 in six months That will define where you're going from here Not trying to

22:37 look at the past and try oh my god I I was hit by core algorithm update Let's search to recover There is no recovery

22:45 Um focus on what you have now What is ranking on top of you try to figure out

22:50 why they have more visibility use AI mode AI Gemini charge to figure out what

22:57 they are referencing and why So look into the future instead of the past I

Diversifying Traffic and Income: What Strategies Work Best?

23:02 guess that's my uh bottom line here Okay Now uh so how do you advise clients

23:10 to diversify their traffic and income source to reduce dependency on Google

23:16 and one thing that I need to write an article about that I keep saying the

23:22 same thing for about 10 years maybe more I have to look back and see all those

23:27 all of those my articles that I've written throughout the years They are more relevant even today But

23:34 you businesses should have started doing that many years ago So first of all work

23:39 on your brand Forget about specific channels Because branding will

23:47 will for sure make it easier for you to adopt any channel You can you can

23:54 transfer audiences from channel to channel You can rely on your name on the existing channel If you are recognized

24:01 brand and very relevant brands you will retain some organic search visibility

24:07 and you will rank I mean there is no rankings but you will be visible in AI enters as well So branding is the core

24:15 of anything you're going to do in the future So this is one The second one is

24:22 build something of your own It could be a newsletter It could be a community It

24:28 could be anything Both I mean two of those is probably are probably good

24:33 options At least those I I have direct experience with that though that is

24:40 powerful because having the asset like that means you do not as much depend on

24:47 clicks on new people coming to your site You can rely both income wise and

24:53 marketing wise on existing brand advocates community members

24:58 newsletters uh people who come back Those two things are not easy to build

25:05 So if you haven't done that yet it they will work in any niche for any business

25:10 You don't have to have a huge community My blogist was huge But true brand

25:16 advocates were like 20 people That was more than enough for any initiative that

25:22 I was starting be it Twitter chat be it I don't know contest we did a blogging

25:28 contest uh contest all the time uh whatever I was trying to do those 20

25:35 people were always on top of helping me promote uh defending my reputation in

25:41 comments on in in forums and and so on Those are key and gold for you So it

25:49 doesn't if you're a small business you don't have to have thousands of people on your list on your list or in your community but having someone uh even if

25:57 it's a small tight community the most important thing is that they engaged and they like your brand and they come back

26:03 again and again that those two key components of a stable brand whichever

26:11 happens to all channels it's Google is not the first to steal our clicks

26:17 Remember Facebook at some point they stopped showing any updates that have

26:22 links in them to the point LinkedIn is doing the same to the point when we had

26:29 to add our links in comments and we still do that because otherwise no one

26:34 will see those updates So they stole all that traffic They didn't want people to

26:40 go away from their uh platform and they definitely stole those clicks It's not

26:45 the first time when we lose an organic visibility channel or not even lose but

26:51 it becomes much less effective If you have your brand and you have people who

26:57 are loyal that will carry uh you through any changes on any platform in any channels

Winning in the New Search Game: Who Will Come Out on Top?

27:05 Right now who do you think will win in the new search game brand media

27:11 companies or creators brands for sure But uh that is that is

27:20 talking about if we talk about organic visibility channels they are not search

27:28 engines anymore so much but they can still give you a lot of organic

27:33 visibility through answering questions Those brands are going to still be

27:40 visible in those answers If you did not build your brand a year

27:46 ago you should start now because they are still actively training They're

27:52 still actively colleating collecting data It's still not too late So brands

27:58 will definitely win as they usually do They are winning SERs now They are

28:04 winning on social They will win AI game as well But there's place definitely

28:10 place for influencers creators but they are not as much

28:17 relying on Google or AI They have their own methods of creating their personal

28:25 brands through networking through providing value through being unique

28:31 through providing great content So that's separate I feel like it's still a huge sector that is going to still

28:39 grow The only thing is that I don't know how AI is going to hurt them on a

28:46 different front You know there are AI influencers now who pretend to be human beings and they have humor They have

28:53 they create something as well I think that will also mess up a lot of creators

29:01 content But I believe and I still hope that people will still crave human touch

29:10 Uh and even though there is still place for AI to take some of that sector I

29:16 feel like being human is still a huge advantage for creators community

AI and Link Building: How Is the Landscape Changing?

29:22 Okay On the topic of brands becoming a brand in the age of AI and EAT Uh now I

29:30 loved your recent LinkedIn post where you pointed out how Google Geminina AI is being trained using traditional

29:36 search signals like page rank Now what does this mean for the future of link

29:41 building are we declaring it that too early it is changing for sure Uh and I think I

29:50 will talk about that uh this week in my newsletter and on my live stream as well

29:56 I will have a series of uh episodes about this particular AI changing the

30:04 way we're doing SEO including link building So how AI works is through

30:10 associations So for example you may not be linked

30:16 It's good It's still great to be linked first of all Yes they still have that signal through from Google from Bing And

30:24 it's how you get discovered It's there is still all about crawling the web Uh

30:31 in most cases there are still search engines and that is still there So getting linked is great but getting

30:38 brand mentions is also equally great at this point So AI works by associating

30:44 you as a brand as an entity to certain contexts and problems So when someone is

30:52 asking a question AI goes through all those associations and picks you if you

31:00 have created a great relevant footprint in terms of links and brand mentions So now for link building the most important

31:08 types of link build of links are those that put you in the right context of

31:15 problem solution whether on your site or outside of that So being listed or

31:21 linked from listicles that list all kinds of solutions that you do as well

31:28 being mentioned by in articles by huge publications as an expert as someone who

31:35 is solving problem in some relevant context So PR PR is great because those

31:41 news publications are really really on top of training data knowledge bases

31:49 indexes and finally Reddit Reddit mentions Reddit links are great too just

31:56 because both Google and OpenAI the biggest players in the AI world at this

32:02 point they have partnerships with Reddit to use it as the training data for their

32:09 AI So all those mentions on Reddit of your brand in in particular threads yes

32:16 most of them are going to be negative but being mentioned on Reddit is key to

32:21 being in the training training data as well So both links and brand mentions on

32:26 Reddit is also very important for training not even just for Reddit visibility which is really great Reddit

32:32 is huge but for training uh for AI training it's very it's very very important So yes we still build links

32:39 There is no wrong way that you cannot just have your website and be findable by Google by Gemini by emote No you

32:47 still need to go outbound and attract those external signals

32:52 So it it's not really a huge change We needed someone to talk about us to link

32:58 to us Now we need someone to talk about us and hopefully link It's uh it's the

33:06 best case scenario but just mentioning a brand is already great So linking is changing but it's not going away

Manipulating AI Training Data: Is It Possible for SEOs?

33:14 So so when you mention about listicles and getting brand mentions so I think is

33:19 it possible for SEOs which always been to manipulate most of it to artificially

33:25 create all of these Oh they already are Yeah they they already because previously it was not just one signal

33:32 You you need to build back links on various parts of the web Now I could just mention five sites or five places

33:39 or communities where I could build brand mentions and bingo here you're going to get more better visibility in AI Is that

33:47 something we are we are of course seeing is it something you see more and more uh getting mainstream

33:54 yes it is Many SEOs are talking about that uh posting faking those listicles

34:01 posting them on on LinkedIn or Medium whoever is accepting those long form

34:07 articles all of them are being used by the training data I would say this um if

34:14 it's a good listical publish it If you can manipulate a little bit it's fine

34:20 relying too much on a tactic that I don't think is going to be effective for

34:26 too long I mean it's AI They will self it will self-train uh itself to just discount anything fake

34:35 I'm sure it's not going to take them too much time It been developing pretty quickly It's becoming smarter as we

34:42 speak So I don't think I don't see that as a long-term uh tactic manipulating those listicicals

34:49 and co- citations So I wouldn't rely I wouldn't invest a

34:55 lot of money in that because it will stop working It will be wasted money for sure I would rather focus and invest

35:02 money in something long-term in the in the real in getting featured on the

35:07 really great third party earned media Re making connections with those people who

35:14 create that content figuring out how to work with them Uh it's much harder than

35:21 manipulating Our industry does like to find shortcuts We all know that But from

35:29 the history of Google from seeing how AI is developing I just don't see that as a

35:36 long-term effective tactic So go ahead and maybe experiment with a few

35:41 listicles It's all about experimentation I get it I'm going to experiment for us

35:48 in that as well I wish I had more time for our own brand We don't experiment

35:53 with clients brands We only experiment with our own brand and it's usually like

35:59 on the very bottom of our to-do list But I do plan to do something like that for sure for at least like a little touch

36:06 experimentation is great but relying too much and we've seen that throughout the

36:12 history of SEO relying on paid links relying on guest blogging links relying

36:17 when there is one someone finds an effective tactic that can be easy

36:25 Companies just do just that and that's it They never look around for other

36:30 things to do They just invest all their money remember that everyone was investing all their marketing budgets

36:36 into paid links and it was working fine for a few years I would say they probably made a lot of money from that

36:43 search visibility but then they lost everything and they had nothing else to promote themselves They just knew how to

36:49 pay for links So I would avoid that Experiment Do other stuff Okay something

36:57 is working Let it work But do not do it 100% of your time Do not focus on just

37:04 one tactic Don't put all your eggs in one basket Now you recently wrote EAT optimization

E-A-T Optimization: Why Is It Considered Ineffective?

37:12 is crap Uh differentiate your brand to become a destination Why do you believe

37:17 brand building is more important than ever and how should agencies shift their mindset from EAT to brand building

37:24 because end of the day people keep on asking is this content EAT friendly

37:30 i hate that when people say that eat friendly Uh I will give a little bit of

37:36 context to well first of all I'm I apologize but that's a clickbaity title

37:42 for sure Yeah I know you everyone needs to also read the whole article So what I

37:49 mean here a EAT is for if someone is watching us not aware of that acronym

37:56 it's introduced by Google as experent expertise authoritiveness trustworthiness

38:03 those are criteria for human people people human readers people who verify

38:09 quality of search results people to evaluate every ranking page it is not

38:17 part of the algorithm No one knows how that is translated

38:22 into the algorith into numbers into signals No one ever had a clear case

38:30 study isolated success story that putting your an authorship on your site

38:36 or a few contact forms or about page all those popular EAT elements that they

38:44 really helped in anything in terms of visibility traffic rankings whatever you

38:50 call it you It's of course good idea if you have EAT elements is you have to

38:59 display them on your site But what our industry decided to do they

39:04 started EAT optimization services and they were all about faking those signals

39:12 So that will be fake authors on the fake reviewers fake expertise fake contact

39:18 fake address It g it got insane to the point when Google noticed that problem

39:25 and even added to their quality raers guidelines Look out for fake EAT signals

39:34 and report them like because we we don't we want algorithm to be able to to spot

39:40 them to to see them as well So that's that what I mean for the first part of

39:46 my title EAT optimization is crap because it you you either have it or you

39:53 do not If you have it of course display it on your site make sure people see it

40:00 That's helpful for trust uh from people as well It will help conversions That will make your site look more legit It

40:07 will probably help Google We don't know how but it's always a good idea to have those elements If you have them for sure

40:15 make make them part of your website and part of your brand Most businesses do have some elements of

40:22 EAT that they forget or they don't know they need on their websites That's great

40:28 Now what is what really counts is how your brand is different from the crowd

40:35 of competitors What do you do in a unique way it could be something little

40:41 but you help people with the same problems in a unique way In e-commerce

40:46 that could be unique products you deliver from Canada with different quality or you deliver from somewhere

40:53 else or you even produce them yourself and you have unique um process

41:00 ingredients maybe some something unique you are doing If you just provide products that

41:08 you I don't know that everyone else does you can bundle them in a unique way make

41:14 it very easy to shop You can deliver them in a in a different way You can you

41:20 can you provide maybe unique instructions of how to use them You should be doing something unique and

41:26 solve a unique problem That's how Google likes you people return to your site

41:33 because you solve their problems and you become part of AI

41:38 indexing let's say like back to indexing when they find specific solutions to

41:44 specific problems That's something I'm going to address on my live stream this

41:51 week Exactly how to optimize your brand for AI And

41:57 there is a cool example uh from someone I forgot a name right now but I will

42:02 reference in my newsletter So someone gets to Gemini or AI mode and they will

42:08 ask I want to buy shoes but I need to be able to try them How will AI understand

42:16 how to solve that problem so they know the shoe retailers and they find someone

42:23 specifically with great return policies So if you make sure that AI knows that

42:30 your return policies are better more convenient faster cheaper someone will

42:37 come to your door and even pick it up for you Something like that If you make sure AI knows that you solve that

42:45 problem better than anyone else even big players even Amazon if you make sure

42:52 that AI knows that you will be part of that answer It will bring you up saying

42:58 "Hey this is the retailer It's not as big as Amazon but they have great return

43:03 policies." So you will be able to try your shoes even before buying them and

43:08 then make sure that you either keep them or you return them That is how you

43:14 optimize for different differentiating your brand from the crowd of competitors And that is why it is more important

43:21 because without that you're just part of the crowd A guy will not know which questions you you you are the answer to

43:29 and that's why it's the future Most even small brands

43:34 can different differentiate themselves They just hear branding and they're like

43:40 "Oh my god we're small We're small businesses We cannot do that." No it's not about how big you are It's how how

43:46 well defined you are How how how well you know the specific problem you are

43:54 the best solution for And then it could translate into regular SEO t tactics

44:00 optimizing content for that problem solution creating content somewhere else

44:06 Reach out to those listical uh authors and say "Hey we could be part of that

44:12 listical because we do XYZ better." And hope you are there Maybe you pay for

44:18 that mention Maybe you provide affiliate income to those uh publishers Maybe you just want maybe they just great enough

44:25 to add you because you are great addition It will depend case by case But

44:30 the first step is defining which problems you are solving in the best and

44:36 maybe unique way Okay Um that actually answers my next two

44:43 follow-up questions as well Uh one was if Gemini and AI overview are favoring

44:48 brand signals what are some actionable ways to strengthen your brand visibility today by the way that is where I can

44:56 bring up my personal story So for AI it is actually important how much you are

45:03 mentioned across the web but the more important thing is how many which clear

45:11 associations you have For example if you have if you do too

45:16 much AI can be confused which prompts you need to be an answer to unless you

45:24 are Amazon Of course Amazon is is like Apple Amazon they are big enough not to

45:30 care about that niche specialization But let's say you are retail store Lots of

45:36 other shoe selling stores across the globe How do

45:42 you stand out it's not exactly about how popular you are

45:49 but more about how welldefined you are And that's where I have a problem Let's

45:55 talk let's for example Al Deselis she has always been one thing international

46:01 SEO that's it right so anytime you're asking about international SEO Gemini

46:10 Chad GPD know clearly who the answer to that prompt is now

46:16 let's talk about me I've been community manager SEO analyst project manager

46:22 project founder uh content marketer guest blogger With this

46:29 vague footprint it's very hard for AI platforms to define which problems you

46:38 are actually solution for right so and I mean it's for good and for worse It's not that I was trying to do that's how

46:44 my career was But for AI it's not the best play It's not the best place to be

46:50 You need to define to to have a clear definition of who you are or who what

46:57 your brand is and where it fits So for example because AI would interpret the

47:05 problem the prompt in different ways For example if you ask the same like I want shoes that I need to try It will

47:13 definitely say okay so this is about shoes he wants or she wants to buy the

47:18 shoes and instead of trying to find brands that let you try them which is

47:25 not many AI is smart enough to understand okay I need brands with great

47:31 return policies and hopefully the best way scenario is that you do not pay for

47:37 those shoes like try before buy you know those business models so AI will likely

47:44 uh search for that token for that concept as well So now AI

47:50 has four criteria buy shoes So buy is intent shoes is what

47:57 and then for trying it will probably look for great shipping return policies

48:04 and try try before buy concept If one site even a little one does a good job

48:12 being associated just with this four concepts all they sell is shoes that you

48:19 can buy them right away You can return them within 30 days and you don't have

48:24 to pay for them unless you keep them If if one if one brand if it's the little

48:29 one combine clearly combine all these four criteria it will be part of the

48:35 answer And that is the most important thing to understand You have the clear

48:41 differentiating not vague one It's not about the amount of brand mentions all across different contexts You need to

48:49 focus on one thing you do best on your value proposition and make sure that you

48:55 have digital footprint that confirms it over and over again Okay Now let's talk about the tools

Underrated SEO Tools: What Should Every Marketer Know?

49:04 content and SEO workflows So uh now let's the and how the day-to-day of SEO

49:11 is evolving Now what's one underrated SEO or content uh tool you think more

49:17 people should be using google I search Google for any search query

49:23 before I create content brief I look out for mentioned brands It's usually like

49:30 related brands Uh search elements if like Well they will clearly even the

49:37 positioning the like image pack somewhere on top on page one It's a

49:42 clear signal that people are interested in the in images for that query It's not

49:49 always obvious For example if you search for something like bathroom design ideas

49:55 you may see that image pack That means that people are mostly using for images

50:01 That's a great signal for you to add a lot of images on your page and make them unique and make them cool and

50:08 interesting and all of that maybe from clients something to stand out I always look out for people also ask type of

50:16 answers people uh now AI overviews how AI views are answering that question

50:21 which type of citations they provide because it's not always the direct

50:26 answer in the citation they will try to find something else something more

50:31 helpful I always look for related searches I always look for even search

50:37 snippets because Google generates them b to be more helpful so those descriptions

50:43 Um I open a few high ranking articles to see what they have to add what makes

50:49 them helpful So I I always Oh wow

50:55 It will come back Sorry You can continue I'll cut myself out Yeah Okay So Google

51:02 is the most underrated Most people who write on content do not use Google to

51:10 before they create content and it has a lot of little hints on what is helpful

51:16 what people can be searching after that before that Um so

51:23 I would definitely encourage SEOs to just search Google more often before

51:29 they provide content briefs to their uh writers before planning content strategy

51:35 just to understand the buying journey around each query How many 101 articles

51:42 there or maybe there's more advanced content what else Google decides to add

51:48 because they every SER is generated just for that search query and and that

51:55 target audience No search engine result page is the same at this point So all

52:02 those sections all those little hints are there for a reason because after 20 years 20 plus years of testing people

52:10 and experimenting with how they engage what what they seems to be more helpful with them Google is the only company

52:18 that has all that data They know exactly what people need for each particular

52:24 query What we can do is to reverse engineer that based on

52:31 search results what we see and what we can get out of that So Google is

52:37 definitely the most use tool and you will not believe how many people do not

52:43 use Google while creating that optimization strategy They lose all they use all kinds of third-party tools AI

52:51 powered AI driven or just keyword research or something like that But not

52:56 Google and Google is the best SEO tool out there Now so uh has your approach to keyword

53:05 research or content brief changed with AI and new SCP behaviors

53:11 well I would say this it has never been the same in the first place I've changed

53:16 it a lot throughout year I think the most drastic change for personally my

53:23 optimization keyword optimization strategy was the introduction of jet

53:29 snippets That's when we started talking about optimizing for the answer uh

53:35 engine instead of search engine uh structuring your content with question

53:42 answer headings using keywords in those headings Um so I guess from there AI is

53:49 using the same principles You just make your content very well structured for AI

53:54 to be able to pull those answers from your content It's very similar to feature snippet optimization Very

54:01 similar So I think that now it hasn't changed as much as what it was 10 years

54:06 ago when feature snippets were introduced Uh right now it's pretty much the same I've always been talking about

54:12 giving very clear answers very factual ones so no vagueness very yes no two

54:20 sentence explanation That's the great answer that is very easy to get featured and now to get into AI as well So I

54:28 would I would definitely say not as much these days as it did 10 years ago Okay

Preparing for the New Era of Search: What Actions to Take?

54:37 Now uh any AI tools you actually use in your writing or optimization process i

54:44 use Gemini a lot Not for writing I mean I do use it for writing as well It's great for generating meta description

54:52 brainstorming title tags uh generating takeaways generating comparison tables

54:58 Sometimes I create like a list of tools for for some problem and then I just

55:05 copy paste it to Gemini and say compare and it will gener it will figure out which columns to have based on my own

55:12 content summarization conclusions Um great There are quite a few uh use cases

55:20 for AI helping us create better optimized more useful content because I

55:26 always think about users as well T comparison tables charts are always

55:33 useful They make it very easy for people to make the right choice based on their own criteria Uh takeaways are great for

55:42 people as well because that's how they skim and then understand which part of the article it talks to their problems

55:50 better So it's it's great It saves a lot of time Ma description I don't remember

55:56 when I last wrote my own description Well I may I make make it shorter after

56:01 Gemini works on it or choose a combine a couple of options but never write it

56:06 from scratch anymore So it's it's it has quite a few great use cases to make it

56:12 more productive but more useful as well You have also talked about tracking

56:17 rankings in chat GPD and the rise of generative engine optimization So how should agency prepares for this new era

56:25 of search especially tracking when you don't know which keyword is actually a challenge

56:31 Not one perfect solution yet I can tell you that and I understand the struggles We don't know and in Google you type the

56:39 query you see it in the URL bar It's that easy You in the URL URL string

56:46 So it it is visible to everyone I mean to to everyone you go to the site from

56:52 because that's the referral URL Um with chat GPD Gemini Yi mode you really don't

56:58 see what's happening there It's private room for everyone So you cannot really

57:05 do much about that There is there are quite a few tools that measure your how

57:11 much LLMs know about your brand and they

57:16 would suggest you which concepts you are lacking how from competitors So I would

57:22 definitely look in that direction first There are also third like secondary

57:28 signals that we can measure um and understand that we are doing well in

57:35 LLMs that include brand search impressions brand search um clicks Um

57:44 those two are very important because people usually go to Google after they

57:50 discover your brand in in an in an AI answer because you have to you don't get

57:59 get links there They are not linked Nothing is linked So you have to copy paste the name and go to Google and

58:07 search there And then then when people enough people are doing that you will

58:12 see that growth in search console homepage visits also direct homepage

58:17 visits can also signal of increased AI visibility So I would definitely look out for these signals and if those if

58:26 you see a positive trend that means that you are brought up in a LLM solutions

58:34 more often Right Right I think that's the only way because with personalized searches I

58:40 don't think in future also it's going to be too much possible The only thing you can

58:45 we are definitely spoiled uh in this 20 years we had direct links with easy

58:53 attribution of clicks we could measure how when came If you think about before

59:01 the internet banner advertising radio advertising TV advertising there was no

59:07 such thing as that easy attribution that easy measurements Uh so people and

59:14 businesses were looking at secondary things like more people coming more

59:19 people asking more people calling So we are going back a little bit to that uh

59:25 not as much easy to attribute to something in particular but the overall

59:31 growth would be a good signal that you are doing the right thing or your agency is doing the right thing right now let's

Brands on Reddit: Why Do Many Fail?

59:38 talk move to the last segment which is Reddit also you've been doing a lot of Reddits and I've seen a lot of your

59:45 shots and talks on Reddit now why do you think so many brands falls on Reddit or

59:51 fails on Reddit sorry by the Okay I just published like five

59:56 minutes before this uh v this meeting I just published I did the unique survey

1:00:04 personally reached out to uh in-house marketing teams on LinkedIn and outside

1:00:11 of it uh surveyed 150 uh marketing teams

1:00:17 about Reddit and the results are 70% of those marketing teams think that Reddit

1:00:24 is the marketing priority 70% of businesses like there are not

1:00:29 exactly 70 70 something uh about 70% of businesses see Reddit ranking for their

1:00:37 brand search and something like 80% of those threats

1:00:44 are negative So they may change buying decisions just like that

1:00:51 And yet almost 90% of those businesses have

1:00:56 never tried Reddit marketing Even though it's a priority even though it is

1:01:02 already impacting their bottom line in their customers decisions

1:01:07 just it's like not easy And I get it Reddit is not easy to understand

1:01:14 my I have a few accounts there that I ever never use because I'm just afraid

1:01:22 of saying something It's just it can blow up so much So

1:01:28 luckily my team and that was the reason why I even I founded my own agency was

1:01:34 because that team was so great uh and I wanted to have that separate I I wanted

1:01:40 to have them So my team has been doing Reddit marketing for about more than 12

1:01:47 years I think close to 13 years now Way before it became a thing We were using

1:01:53 it for networking community building uh content promotion It does have to be a

1:02:00 very Reddit friendly content not just anyone any part of it Um so something

1:02:06 very eye-rabbing nonpromotional interesting stories

1:02:14 So they know exactly how to use Reddit They've been there for 12 years They

1:02:20 know what can what you can say what you cannot say So I 100% rely on their

1:02:27 expertise on that and we are lucky to be able to be the only ones with that

1:02:33 amount of Reddit expertise on the market at this point It is still scary for most

1:02:39 brands It's not easy to to sell those services Just don't get me wrong because

1:02:44 Reddit is so much misunderstood

1:02:49 uh and so so so like very secret societies because it does does include

1:02:56 so many little communities all with different rules all with different

1:03:02 accepted tone of communication all of different even demographics So it is it

1:03:07 is scary when you try to to get to know Reddit Um but luckily we have that

1:03:15 expertise It's not mine and uh I can tell you that I'm not as good at Reddit

1:03:21 I can um research it I can evaluate how much help you need what direction we

1:03:29 should take in terms of whether it's fixing whether it's brand awareness whether it's both how not to use ready

1:03:36 for it not to backfire so I can do high level uh strategy but it's up to my team

1:03:44 to actually put it in action and do the tactical part of it and I'm thankful for

1:03:49 that for sure So so what does a successful Reddit presence look like for a company

1:03:56 first of all um you always always expect

1:04:02 a mix of positive and negatives So what you want to do is first control

1:04:11 more of the sentiment throughout pages that you can moderate you can send your

1:04:17 employees So the more Reddit threads you are in control of the better That's why

1:04:23 in in many cases when there is a huge reputation management

1:04:28 problem which is like I said 70% of businesses I I personally surveyed I

1:04:36 experiencing So if you have a problem on Reddit creating your own micro community

1:04:43 subreddit there is the best case scenario because that's where you can actually send your happy customers to

1:04:52 have your own moderators to reply to to make clear like it's not because Reddit

1:04:57 is in essence a bunch of miserable customers No happy clients will ever go

1:05:04 to Reddit to talk about their great experience with the brand I mean then like 2% of people will take the trouble

1:05:11 to do that Most cases only unhappy customers are ready to take that trouble

1:05:18 to find the sub ready to vent to be very unhappy about what they did And let's

1:05:25 face it all businesses have unhappy clients at some point whether it's a misunderstanding whether it's bad

1:05:32 customer support day I don't know it can go wrong and I get it In most cases

1:05:37 those people do go to Reddit So having that little place of um happy people

1:05:45 that have experience with your with your brand is always helpful We also do PR

1:05:51 campaigns on Reddit especially local subreddits or very niche subreddits Um

1:05:57 so those send very good signal very good traffic those are very good as well so I

1:06:05 would say well balanced presence on Reddit is the goal so it's not just

1:06:12 negative balancing it with PR campaigns with your own community uh posting from

1:06:20 your company's behalf on there that's the goal because at this point and my

1:06:26 survey results confirm that most uh companies are struggling with 100%

1:06:34 negative sentiment on Reddit and that can actually ruin the bottom line of the

1:06:41 company I have a very good client who has been in the market for 10 years and

1:06:47 one Reddit thread calling them a spam already resulting into cancelled

1:06:53 contracts huge canceled contracts for that client Um they are investment

1:06:59 company and of course people invest using investment company seeing

1:07:04 something ranking for their search for their brand name something like this company is a scam get scared immediately

1:07:12 No one even reads the thread They gets very scary So in many cases it's a huge

1:07:19 issue when people actually change their buying decisions just based on those t

1:07:26 thread titles not even reading what's inside So balancing balancing it out

1:07:32 makes a much more stable brand positioning brand as um in organic

1:07:39 search or outside of it Okay Uh we almost overshoot our time So I'll come

Rapid Fire Round: Quick Insights from Ann

1:07:46 to the last section which is a rap rapid fire question So I'm going to ask you some questions You answer first thing comes in your mind Ready

1:07:54 okay Now at a re a recent tool or tactics you are excited about

1:08:00 I'm excited about AI mode I mean I'm shouldn't but I like the quality of the

1:08:06 answers that it provides and I'm excited of using it because it gives a lot of

1:08:12 understanding of how AI in general works and how sites uh real and so on Sorry

1:08:19 Okay I'll be fast Okay One platform you are secretly bullish on besides Reddit

1:08:26 Come again One platform you are secretly bullish on besides Reddit

1:08:36 Twitter Okay Your favorite quote or mantra that

1:08:42 keeps you motivated It's it's going to be okay in the end If

1:08:48 it's not okay it's not the end I agree with that Uh advice for aspiring

1:08:55 agency owners or digital marketers just starting out Build your personal brand

1:09:01 That's the only way People trust people Even big corporations Invest into

1:09:07 building time I did it for free I never paid for anything I was just very active

1:09:12 everywhere And it's still possible to do it this day as well Just build invest in your personal brand

1:09:18 Is it the founder if it's the public rep if it's uh someone needs to have a personal brand in your company or hire

1:09:26 one right and in one word describe the future of SEO

1:09:32 The future is probably uh zeroclick future I imagine AI will soon not just

1:09:41 make buying decisions but also being able to buy for the client for the user

1:09:47 with so users will never be a will never even have to go to websites to pro to go

1:09:53 the full circle of discovery decision making conversion all of that will soon

1:10:01 be happening on AI platforms inside that little dashboard that they have with all

1:10:07 the prompts and questions Be ready for that Optimize for AI visibility now

Outro: Key Takeaways from Today's Discussion

1:10:15 Right So with that we came to the end of this podcast and then thank you so much

1:10:20 for sharing your expertise and insight today I know I know our listeners will walk away with a ton of actionable ideas

1:10:27 especially with AI and Reddit Now and for those who wants to follow Ann's work check it out Check out check out her

1:10:33 LinkedIn subscribe to our newsletter and of course visit Smarty Marketing And

1:10:39 once again thank you Thank you for having me and I hope I got I put useful

1:10:45 for you and your audience Yes Yes Yes And thank you all for tuning in to the Agency Insider Show If you enjoyed this

Conclusion: What’s Next for the SEO Community?

1:10:53 episode please subscribe rate and share We'll be back soon with more agency insights and digital marketing wisdom

1:10:59 Until next time keep learning and keep growing