Podcast With Barry Schwartz

Google Updates & AI Overviews: Barry Schwartz Explains All

Show Notes

Ready to master SEO in 2025 and beyond? In this must-watch episode of "The Agency Insider Show," Navneet Kaushal sits down with SEO legend @rustybrick to uncover how AI is revolutionizing the search landscape—and what you need to do to stay ahead. 🚀

Discover Barry’s expert take on Google’s latest algorithm updates, actionable SEO strategies for 2025, and the key to driving more organic traffic to rank your website number 1. From understanding the evolving role of AI in content strategies to navigating unconfirmed updates, Barry shares insider tips and real-world advice to help you achieve a #1 ranking and future-proof your success.

Wondering how to adapt to rapid search changes? Curious about what AI-driven search means for your brand? Don’t miss Barry’s candid insights, practical tools, and predictions for the future of SEO. Whether you’re a beginner or seasoned pro, this episode is packed with everything you need to optimize your site, increase visibility, and dominate search engine rankings.

💡 Ready to take your SEO game to the next level? Hit play now and learn how to outpace the competition in this ever-evolving digital world! Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share with fellow marketers who are obsessed with SEO.

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro

00:55 - How Did Your Journey Shape the SEO World?

02:28 - What’s the Most Surprising Reaction to Your Post?

04:10 - What Pivotal Moment Shaped Your Career Trajectory?

05:02 - How Has Your Daily Routine Evolved with SEO?

06:37 - What Role Did You Envision for SE Roundtable in SEO?

09:04 - How Do You Moderate Comments on Your Posts?

10:26 - How Does SE Roundtable Differ from Search Engine Land?

11:35 - How Do You Monitor and Report on Unconfirmed Google Updates?

14:15 - How Many People Contribute to SE Roundtable?

14:30 - What Drives Your Commitment to Keeping the Community Informed?

15:38 - Manual Reporting vs. Automated SEO: What’s Your Take?

17:40 - What SE Roundtable Story Stands Out Most for You?

21:05 - How Should Agencies Adapt to Rapid Search Updates?

22:35 - What Are the Biggest Opportunities and Risks for Agencies in AI?

24:21 - How Will AI Overviews Affect Content Strategies?

27:02 - How to Communicate Complex Search Changes to Clients?

28:49 - What Are the Most Misunderstood Aspects of Google’s Ranking System?

31:00 - Which Recent Algorithm Updates Are Agencies Underestimating?

32:58 - What Changes Are Happening in Google Local Pack?

35:05 - What’s Your Take on ChatGPT?

37:10 - What Advice Do You Have for Young Digital Marketing Professionals?

40:46 - Why Is Digital PR and Brand Building Important for SEO?

42:46 - Why Have You Never Offered SEO Services?

45:50 - What Are Your Bold SEO Predictions for the Next 5 Years?

47:15 - Will Google Still Dominate Search by 2030?

48:11 - Rapid Fire Questions

49:25 - Outro

Transcript

Intro

0:00 there's so much competition out there that just because you wrote something and it's not going to rank number one because you wrote it it it takes

0:06 [Music] [Applause]

0:14 [Music] [Applause] time Hey everyone welcome to the another

0:20 powerp packed episode of the agency insider show I'm your host Nabnit Koshel and today we are diving into the heart

0:26 of the SEO universe with none other than Barry squad the man behind search engine

0:31 round table longtime editor at search engine land and one of the most respected voice in digital marketing

0:37 whether it's Google latest algorithm update or how AI is reshaping the search experience Barry is always the first to

0:43 know and today he's going to share his insights right where us welcome to the show Barry Hi thanks for having me

0:50 really nice intro I appreciate that thank Uh let's talk a little bit about your

How Did Your Journey Shape the SEO World?

0:55 journey and influence in the SEO world So uh Barry for those who might not know the full story How did your journey into

1:03 SEO and search journalism begin

1:08 the early days um we were building a lot of websites my company um a lot of software web- based software One of our

1:15 uh clients wanted to know how search worked back in like I don't know early 2000s I think it was like 2000 2000 or

1:23 2001 I'm like that's a good question So I did a lot of research I went to a lot of the Google a lot of the forums back

1:28 then like the old web master world forums SEO chat um all the old ones high

1:34 ranking forums so create a site and there's a whole community there and I was became fascinated with it and I'm

1:39 like nobody's really finding these really detailed discussions in these

1:45 forums because they're deep inside threads of threads and back then nothing was really SEO optimized especially

1:51 forums although web master world was was um And I'm like you know what maybe if I

1:57 could you know summarize what the SEO community is saying on a blog Um that

2:02 might be a good way to help the community So I started like taking notes on what were some of the best uh

2:10 conversations happening in the SEO community based on what people were posting in the forums linking to them citing them and so forth And honestly

2:17 been doing that for the past 20 years now So yeah I've been following you for most of

2:23 those years Yeah Now uh you have constantly broken

What’s the Most Surprising Reaction to Your Post?

2:29 some of the biggest stories in the SEO uh history What's been the most surprising reaction you have ever gotten

2:36 from a post um probably the most surprising one one was I covered I found a I found a thread

2:43 where a family of a guy probably a teenager

2:49 was super upset that his girlfriend was

2:54 um basically spamming Google with memes of the boyfriend And if you did a search

3:00 for the guy's name in Google search image search up came like thousands of like memes about the boyfriend And I'm

3:08 like "Wow this is pretty interesting We have these like teenagers." This is like probably like I don't know 10 years ago

3:13 15 years ago teenagers using Google image search to get back at each other And I'm like so I covered as like a SEO

3:19 story I'm like "Oh the SEO community would love it." turned out like massive websites like you know from gossip sites

3:26 like TMZ to like big publishers like I don't know big as CNN I think picked up

3:31 on it and they covered it as well and then it made the I guess the the couple

3:36 the boyfriend or whatever even more upset I'm like I never thought it would go beyond their small little community

3:41 Um it's actually the only I think post I have like a robots out on my website Uh

3:47 so find it probably the only one there in robots txt file that's robust out because I told the family I'm like I

3:53 can't stop and prevent like other websites from covering it but I could get Google not to link you know index my

3:59 story because I felt horrible I thought it was only going to be like an SEO story but turned out to be a huge story that I never imagined would be a big

4:06 deal Wow Now uh looking back at your early

What Pivotal Moment Shaped Your Career Trajectory?

4:11 days with Rusty Break SE roundtable and then search engine land can you share a

4:16 pivotal moment that shaped your career trajectory my career trajectory i that's a I don't

4:23 know that's a rough one I don't think there's any specific moment Um

4:28 I can't pinpoint a specific moment I mean my my career is really my software company The the SEO stuff is more of a

4:35 hobby if that makes sense And I don't think there was any one specific you

4:40 know point in the it's just being consistently con you know over time being writing stories consistently even

4:48 my business being very consistent about responding to customers and you know it's just being very consistent So it's

4:53 not one thing I think it's just the repetitive nature of being really consistent over the course of the 20 plus years Wow Uh with over two decades

How Has Your Daily Routine Evolved with SEO?

5:02 in the industry how has your day-to-day evolved as a SEO itself has evolved

5:09 how was how was I how how did I evolve with SEO how how has your day-to-day work evolved

5:15 as the SEO has evolved um I don't Yeah my day-to-day really I mean hasn't

5:22 really changed that much you know in terms of what I do with SEO I look for the best discussions you know every

5:28 morning I cover them every morning and I move on in terms of maybe how I my writing style has changed as I you know

5:34 as you practice something you get better at it over time So my writing probably has gotten a little bit better over the years Um and the one big change I guess

5:41 with AI is that I started to use um AI to actually generate images more often

5:47 than not Like I would say 90% of my images now on search round table are generated using midjourney which is a AI

5:53 based image generation tool And I know it's not great to use AI for images like

5:58 to represent real things But when you're writing about I don't know Google bot crawling the web you're not going to get

6:05 a real image of that So you could say you know create a image of a robot a fun robot in dressed in red blue and you

6:11 know gold colors crawling through whatever and it will create a cool image on that which is really relevant for the

6:16 content but it might not be you good use for writing a story about some real

6:22 thing like um I don't know kids um starving from hunger in some country because you're not going to want to go

6:28 and use it a fake image of that But when it comes to you know using images for really technical topics around Google

6:33 bot or whatever it comes in handy Okay let's talk a little bit more about

What Role Did You Envision for SE Roundtable in SEO?

6:39 SE round table because that's how I get to know more of you Now many know you as

6:45 a also as an executive editor at the search engine land You are also the founder and driving force behind search

6:50 engine round table which of course is a site that becomes a daily staple for SEO worldwide I'm sure till today Now

6:58 uh when you started search engine roundt back in 2003 you just mentioned you put

7:04 it as a note for a community Now did you envision its role at that time in the

7:09 SEO community or it just happened naturally no I didn't start it to have any sort of role per se in the community

7:16 Um no I just I just love um write I like breaking like stories

7:24 quickly I find it you know thrilling I also enjoy you know documenting what I

7:29 read Um and they say if you write it down you don't really forget it I've in the early days yeah I wouldn't forget it

7:35 But now that I've written like close to like close to 50,000 stories now yeah of course I forgot a lot I forgot a lot

7:41 more than I wrote ever written Um but I never like built it as a way like I want to become like you know I want this to

7:47 be like some type of like industry whatever I just wanted to take notes about what's going on I first started

7:53 actually covering uh like the early SCES 2003 Chicago event or something like

7:59 that Um just taking notes of what people were writing about and then sharing it because a lot of people couldn't go to those conferences Um it was a way just

8:06 to really document what I was learning in the SEO community and sharing with others So I never really imagined it

8:12 would be I mean even now it's you can't consider it's it's big for the industry but outside of that like we're a small

8:18 little industry and my blog is a small little blog um in the you compare it to like a site like you know CNBC it's

8:25 nothing it's it's like nothing so it's a speck in the dust so it's not really that big in the scheme of things I guess

8:32 but you know the parts which I love about your blog is when you update when you post any news about a Google update

8:39 and the way people comments on it and then they are discussing amongst themselves so it just reminds me what

8:46 used to be something when we used to do it on web master world because now there is no forum So that is where I always

8:53 tell my team that don't just go what Barry posted because there are some solutions some people pinpoint and you

8:58 will might find similarity when people are talking in those comments and sometime those comments goes in hundreds

How Do You Moderate Comments on Your Posts?

9:04 I I'm sure you know those yeah some and they get a little bit off topic there a

9:09 lot of emotion there and I don't blame it people need a like a a place to go and I guess vent if their site tanked in

9:17 the rankings by 80% or more and they lost all a lot of their revenue overnight It's a very very sad and you

9:26 know scary thing So they need somewhere to go vent Um I try not to moderate the

9:31 comments too much but sometimes they go really off the rails And once you start like targeting individuals and abusing

9:37 them I try to be on top of that Sometimes a little bit more than I could expect Uh but Web Master World's still

9:43 pretty active honestly They have a lot of great um discussions there Um you can always pick up a lot of discussions in

9:50 the Google forums themselves although they're kind of like one-offs and they're hard to like put together Um but

9:56 overall yeah there is a lot of discussion going on the search and round table right now It's a lot less than it was uh a year ago Uh because people

10:03 still had hope when it came to Google search Um but now people are really losing hope um in terms of their

10:08 websites and they're giving up Uh which is kind of sad to see but um at least I know I like to give people an outlet on

10:14 the site to to write what they need to to kind of give them some more someplace to go where they could talk to other

10:20 people in the same boat as them So right Yeah Right Now now h how does the

How Does SE Roundtable Differ from Search Engine Land?

10:26 editorial focus of SE roundtable differs from search engine land and what kind of

10:32 a stories or updates do you prioritize for each yeah So um I guess Search and

10:37 Round Table is more of a community site Um where I cover more of the little nitty-gritty like in the weeds types of

10:44 things that only like diehard um search marketers would care about like really like stuff you wouldn't find Like I

10:51 don't know this morning I covered you know Google changing like their autocomplete uh feature Um and most

10:58 people wouldn't care about that Um search engine land's more of like the bigger news Um so yeah of course a

11:04 Google update a confirmed Google update I will cover there I rarely cover unconfirmed Google updates on search engine land Um I save that for you know

11:11 search and round table covers all the unconfirmed stuff Um I usually break a

11:16 lot of the you know embargoed stuff where Google will be like we're releasing this feature in a couple days and they'll send me some news ahead of time That would be broken first on

11:22 search engine land Um and then I'll have the community reaction more to it on search engine roundt the day after Um so

11:29 it's really more of a community approach versus like breaking bigger stories on search engine Okay Now SE roundtable of

How Do You Monitor and Report on Unconfirmed Google Updates?

11:38 course as you also mentioned is known for its detailed coverage of unconfirmed Google algorithm updates and industry

11:44 chatter So can you walk us through your process for monitoring verifying and reporting on these early signals

11:51 yeah Um so I use a lot of like uh what's going on in discussion forums both on

11:56 the Google forms on web master world even now my own site people are like I see something's going on they'll start

12:01 chattering about it um and then I'll keep an eye on that usually I see that like at some point during the day and

12:08 then I'll go ahead and track see if the the third party tracking tools like Seamrush and Mocast and um a bunch of

12:16 these tools um you know similar web actually start to notice ranking volatility in the search results and

12:21 usually when I see a spike in like SEO chatter within the past 24 hours the tools will show um the next morning the

12:29 a big spike in volatility So when I see those two things happen at the same time then I know I want to cover it Sometimes

12:35 there'll be a case where the tools are spiking and there's less chatter and sometimes it'll be the reverse Um and I

12:41 try not to cover it then But if it's like really unusual I will cover it like just recently

12:47 um one of the tool sets says show there was a big spike um drop in Reddit traffic um just like a you know over the

12:54 past week this happened just like earlier this week and some SEO is recovering and Glen Gab's like it doesn't make sense um I'm not seeing it

13:01 on the keyword level and I'm like yeah the other tools aren't showing it either um and then some the the tool set the cy

13:07 I think it was citric cyrix that actually noticed that drop um they confirmed this morning that it was some

13:13 type of change to the Google interface and that caused caused this to happen and it wasn't really that Reddit saw a traffic drop So you have to be somewhat

13:21 you know you want to have multiple signals that confirm when there's a big update going on especially when you're looking at one specific site but more so

13:28 when you're actually looking at the overall was there a Google update I like to have multiple signals that pick up on

13:34 this Um and it's very important to for me I think to post these things is because Google's not confirming a lot of

13:40 these updates And then you have a site that saw a significant drop in their Google traffic and they don't know where

13:46 to turn Like nobody's talking about this So I'm like well we're talking about a search round table and there's a lot of

13:51 other people that were hit So you could actually talk to them and say hey I'm I'm in the same boat People get some people in the industry is like Barry

13:58 stop reporting about a Google update every other day Um and I agree on some

14:03 level but at the same time it's good to know that I'm not alone when when I get hit And I think reporting on it helps

14:09 some people It might not help you because you weren't hit but it does definitely help people who work Right

14:14 Right Right Right Absolutely agree with that How many people work on Round Table it's just you all the time Just me Uh I

How Many People Contribute to SE Roundtable?

14:22 sometimes have some guest post here and there when it's like unusual but I mean I'm probably it's 99% me So okay Now you

What Drives Your Commitment to Keeping the Community Informed?

14:31 have published over 50,000 articles on AC round table and are famous for your work ethics and most importantly the

14:37 consistency I mean I've seen you being consistent I mean I would personally get

14:43 tired but you are one person who would put daily In fact you've been doing more videos than I know anybody out there Now

14:50 what drives your daily commitment to keeping the community informed

14:56 um I guess I'm just a stubborn person I like to stay on top of stuff I like to keep doing what I do Um I don't like to

15:03 stop doing what I do Um so I'm just in everything I do just in life I'm very

15:08 consistent Um people know they could you know expect me to show up at a certain time um and so forth Um so it's just my

15:16 nature of being very consistent Um that's it really It's nothing you know money is not driving it The site doesn't

15:23 make much money to be honest Um right I just people you know I like to be consistent with my with whatever I do

15:30 from my personal life to um surgeon roundt to my business

15:37 Now uh given the explosions of AI tool and content generation what's your philosophy around manual reporting

Manual Reporting vs. Automated SEO: What’s Your Take?

15:44 versus automated SEO manual reporting in terms of what in

15:49 terms of my writing news i don't automate any of my reporting

15:56 It's all manual But but what is your take on that people using AI to generate articles on the fly

16:04 or news on the fly where they crawl and generate instead of somebody writing it

16:09 Um my take it depends on what it is like stock report like earnings reports they've been doing that forever um

16:15 because it's just a mathematical thing and it's the only way to get the stuff out fast Uh but you do want to add

16:21 opinion to that So you see some of the better sites not just use AI but they also add you know quotes from people and

16:27 opinion pieces on that as well Um I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing as long as the content's good I do see a

16:33 lot of sites that I read I'm like "This looks I can't read this It just looks automated It looks like it's written by AI." Uh but AI is getting better and

16:40 better over time So I do eventually think that I could be easily replaced by AI in the near future I don't think it's

16:47 going to be take a while I think it's going to be near future stuff that can AI could definitely replace what I do

16:52 and replace what most reporters do and most professions do Honestly AI will replace a lot of stuff Um right I think

16:59 Paul Shapiro one of these SEOs in the SE community just posted this morning saying that he had some issue with his

17:06 sun pump like some device in his house It was like it was backing up or something and he had chat GPT took up a

17:12 video with chat GPT on his phone asking how he could fix it and it walked him through how to fix like a plumbing issue

17:18 I mean AI is replac people people said plumbers are safe electricians are safe

17:24 Yeah sure But I mean we have taxi cabs driving themselves We have you know everything's automated these days And AI

17:31 is going to replace a lot of that And I'll probably be the first thing that people that AI replaces And I'm perfectly happy with that I don't really

17:36 care So let it happen All right All right Now

What SE Roundtable Story Stands Out Most for You?

17:42 um so looking back uh besides any story you told about are there any other

17:48 particular stories or moments from SE round table history that stands out especially impactful or memorable for

17:55 you i I guess like the ones the universal search when it came out in like 2006

18:01 2007 that landed me on on NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams before Brian

18:08 Williams had a scandal Um so he was a very big reporter back on channel 4 So I went to Rockefeller Center I sat there

18:16 um and spoke to a camera He was on the other end somewhere else I guess Uh I spoke to him I spoke to like the

18:22 interview for about 45 minutes or so Um then the news was broadcasted I think

18:27 that night and I got about four five six seconds of air time because it was the same night that they caught Osama bin

18:33 Laden and they cut the whole segment down to nothing So So that was pretty fun Um but yeah I

18:41 mean it's interesting because you don't know what an impact the site has until

18:47 you speak to people in the community Like people come over to me all the time and help me get this job and help me with this they help me with that help me

18:53 whatever it might be And then you have go to like Google events and there's Googlers there and they're like you have executives who like literally lead up

18:59 Google search and they're like you know you've helped us solve these problems or those problems I'm like I had no idea I

19:05 just cover stuff and push stuff out and who knows who reads it So nice to hear back from the community sometimes Yeah I

19:12 love the way you share different uh Google Plexes photos of different stuff so all the time I mean I'm sure keeps on

19:20 sharing those with you Yeah Well done Yeah Right now so what's

19:27 in a Barry's toolbox are there any lesserk known tools or platforms you find

19:32 indispensable today um I don't lesser known tools I use RSS a lot like like so

19:38 back in the old days it was Google reader now I'm using Feedley a lot um I do still use a lot of bookmarks um I do

19:44 use um tools to track when web pages do change those tools become less reliable so I do often actually check them

19:50 manually as well and it's fast I have a process to handle that very quickly I do

19:56 have a custom a bunch of customuilt stuff that I use to keep track of these things um so I know what I'm covering um

20:04 and I to um see what else there is Yeah I mean I

20:10 also go to the forums manually and check stuff there So it's a combination of all that stuff Specifically with search on the round table I try to automate as

20:16 much as possible make things as efficient as possible Um not using AI necessarily to automate that but I'm

20:22 doing a lot of things um in a very efficient way to be able to track a lot of SEO chatter across the community Um

20:29 but it's a combination of um feedley combination of Google alerts combination

20:35 of uh tracking certain form threads tracking what specific Googlers are saying uh and then having ways to track

20:42 specific web pages that may change over time at Google Okay And how many how

20:47 much how many hours you spend every day on an average on SE round table how many hours do you think I spend i'm just

20:53 curious I think maybe two or three hours Yeah So

20:58 usually yeah probably like two or three hours probably closer to two hours a day

21:04 Okay Now let's talk about a little bit about search updates and you recently discussed the pace and impact of Google

How Should Agencies Adapt to Rapid Search Updates?

21:10 updates and how should agencies and marketers you think should adapt to these rapid changes

21:18 They should just close up their businesses and go home because No I'm just joking Um I mean SEOs are actually

21:25 I hope not I mean I SEOs are really good at adapting I mean SEO SEO and search has changed so much over the past 20

21:32 years Um and SEOs who have been along for that ride for the past you know 10 15 20 years are really really good at

21:39 adapting to change So when search um went from templates to videos and maps

21:46 and images and you know featured snippets was a big change later on We

21:52 adapted and we and we changed with this with that and with AI overviews and AI mode will adapt It's obviously search is

21:57 sending less traffic than it ever has to publishers Uh but people are still users

22:03 consumers are still going to search um Google search They're still going to um then now they're going to like chat GPT

22:09 for other answers and so forth and to AI mode and so forth So I think SEOs will adapt to make sure the clients that

22:15 they're working for that their brand show up there Will they get clicks to their website as often probably not But

22:21 their goal is to somehow get brand share um in those um AI engines to go ahead and get traffic to those companies you

22:29 know one way or another And I think AI's uh SEOs will adapt and handle that Right

What Are the Biggest Opportunities and Risks for Agencies in AI?

22:35 now uh in one of your latest video you touched on the evolving role of AI in search Now what do you see as the

22:42 biggest opportunity and risk for agencies in this space

22:47 the biggest you know it's ob it's the same thing It's it's if they don't change and adapt to these to these

22:53 changes they will be if they don't do that they will become irrelevant and they'll and they'll not be able to hand

22:58 on But if they do adapt and they do change for they'll they'll be able to handle it So they need to start looking at and this is why I cover a lot of

23:05 these changes is because when Google makes a pixel change yeah big deal who cares u but some of these changes

23:11 forhadow where Google is going to go in the future um you know when Google when chat GBT launched their chatbt search

23:17 with shopping breaking down how that works is very important and being on top of that and seeing how your clients so

23:23 you have to constantly try these new features um so that you can see how they return search

23:29 results you can see how you can help your clients show up in those search results be it an AI answer be it a

23:35 feature snippet be it an image or a video or a template or a simple blue link you need to be be able to make sure

23:40 that your clients are able to show up in those areas when it's relevant And if you are resistant to change you're not going

23:47 to last in the industry If you are um if you're excited for change and you're like an early adopter then you're going

23:54 to be great I mean I always download the latest and best update before it's like

23:59 people tell me it's safe to do that because I want to play with it before people do And I love change Even as I

24:04 get older I still enjoy change and I still love following the and being on top of the latest stuff because I like

24:10 to break things and try things and um so I think you have to have that mindset in this industry or you won't last and that's an opportunity as well as could

24:17 be a big big risk for a lot of SEOs who aren't of that nature Right Right Now

How Will AI Overviews Affect Content Strategies?

24:23 there's been a lot of talk about AI overviews and its implications Now what's your take on how a how a AI

24:31 overview is and will affect organic searcher and content strategies specifically

24:39 um so what's the threat with AI overview with with content strategies you're asking no So what is your take on how AR

24:46 AI overview is going to affect the content strategies um I'm not sure yet I mean I think I I

24:54 think it's leading to people producing less content because they're like "Why bother?" Um because people aren't

24:59 clicking over to my content and Google's citing it Um but in terms of strategy to be to show up in there it's still the

25:06 same SEO strategy You still have to rank good content Early on when Google first launched their AI over SGE search and

25:13 experience it was citing stuff that was like out of date or low quality or

25:18 somewhat spammy and also 404 like you click on the links it was like page wasn't even there anymore because it was so spammy But Google's getting better at

25:25 showing the the better content in the AI review It still could be easily spammed

25:30 There's still lots of issues with just like they were early days of feature snippets but ultimately Google's going

25:36 to want to show the best type of content and source the best type of content um in their a reviews and link to that And

25:42 that strategy is not going to change It's just can Google get it right and how long will take Google to get right So if I was generating content as a

25:49 content marketing play for SEO purposes I would continue doing what I'm doing Um you maybe one change you want to think

25:55 about is fluffing up your content like people did in the old days for SEO purposes for like you know Google's

26:01 whole like helpful content update and making sure you have content for people versus search engines I ne people were

26:08 like Barry why is your content so short why don't you like add more information to it and make it more fluffy so it

26:13 ranks better i'm like my readers want to get to the point me to get to the point they don't want to waste time And now I

26:19 think like you see these recipe sites back in the even like now the recipe sites they're just like they till you get to the recipe itself it just takes

26:25 so much time to read the history on the recipe about their grandmother who came up with it what the weather was like on

26:31 that day It just it's kind of ridiculous And I think Google's kind of more focused on rewarding the content that

26:38 gets to the point that actually serves the user better I think that's one maybe big change that you'll see that you're

26:44 starting to see now and you'll probably see in the future when it comes to content Yeah I I agree I think uh gone

26:50 are the days where longer content is going to serve the purpose So I I'm seeing a lot of SEO trying to decrease

26:56 the content and uh size of the pages and actually getting rewarded for it right now How do you recommend

How to Communicate Complex Search Changes to Clients?

27:04 agencies communicate complex search changes to their clients without causing panic or confusion

27:12 um I don't know It's how do you how do I recommend that i mean the it's the way

27:18 you word it I guess I mean as an opportunity like search is changing We're We as an agency we're on top of it

27:24 We know about AI overviews We know about AI mode We know about chat GBT and SEG

27:30 search and the shopping and we know about perplexity State how you know about what's you know the changes that

27:35 are happening Maybe offer webinars to your customers saying here's the here's an overview of what's changing Um here's

27:42 an opportunity for maybe break it out by segment You have a I don't know travel versus you know whatever might be you

27:48 know B2B and you might want to go ahead and tell them this is how you guys show up in these areas and this is these are

27:53 our strategies So again explain to your customers what's changing Make sure they know you're on top of it and make sure

28:00 you they know you have a plan of action in terms of what you could do to help them throughout this these changes Now

28:07 you might want to communicate that so far people are noticing less traffic organically from these results but paid

28:14 search seems to be fine meaning the paid ads are still above most these things um in Google search Um people are are I

28:21 think advertising is doing super well Obviously the Google's latest earnings report show that they're still doing great when it comes to people clicking

28:27 on ads and so forth Um but you know how ads might differ or organic results

28:33 might different in an interface like AI mode or chatbt that was wait to be seen but you're on top of it You're the

28:38 agency that's playing with it and you're going to be the first person to know about these changes and be able to adapt

28:44 to those changes because your agency is really really on top right now Uh from your perspective what

What Are the Most Misunderstood Aspects of Google’s Ranking System?

28:51 are the most misunderstood aspects of Google ranking system today

28:58 um it depends on who you're asking So back you know if you ask some lay person

29:03 that doesn't know anything about Google search it's funny They think that as soon as you post a piece of content that

29:09 Google somehow magically knows about it It doesn't It needs to crawl a page find a link to it then crawl that page index

29:16 that content understand it and understand where to rank it So it's not like it's instant I mean obviously Bing

29:22 wants you to use um index now which is more instant but it's still not instant Um so that's like probably the biggest

29:28 like just because you posted a page on the web doesn't mean that Google's going to find it immediately It takes time Two

29:34 is um you know how those ranking systems work People just don't understand that

29:40 there's so much competition out there that you know just because you wrote something again is just it's not going

29:45 to rank number one because you wrote it It it takes time Google has to trust you and so forth Just a lot of confusion out

29:52 there in terms of how rankings in general work um and how indexing works And I think you see that a lot with the

29:59 Department of Justice um going after Google these these judges that really don't understand how technology works

30:05 You you hear these Senate and congressional hearings where Google these these these our leaders in America

30:11 at least are questioning Google executives and and these Google executives are like that's not how it works or even Facebook is not how it

30:18 works Now do we trust Google saying that do we trust Facebook when they say that maybe maybe not That's why but at the

30:24 same time um it's a very confusing thing These algorithms are very confusing AI

30:29 makes it even more confusing uh because they do things by themselves So yeah I mean it's it's a it's an interesting

30:36 space to be in And um I think it's just confusing space It's always been confusing I mean back in the old days it was like it was like some type of like

30:42 magic or art like some weird art that made this work when it's really not It's build great content make sure Google

30:49 could crawl it um and hopefully Google will reward you This is less reward these days than ever was because of how

30:55 search changing but that's always been the premise really Now

Which Recent Algorithm Updates Are Agencies Underestimating?

31:00 uh uh so from uh are there any recent

31:06 Google algorithm updates or industry shifts that you think agencies are underestimating i I don't know what

31:11 agencies are under I really don't really know what agencies are underestimating Um let's say what SEOs are

31:18 underestimating as a professional It's it's hard to know I mean I think a

31:23

lot of SEOs are still going through their checklist of do this this this and that and they're not really thinking

31:28 about the future Um and I get that they're paid to just do their checklist and move on But I I don't know what

31:34 they're necessarily underestimating I mean a lot of them overestimate links I think that like how important links are I think that's you know SEO 10 years ago

31:43 Um but I think a lot of them are still looking for like specific like I need to do this this and this to do well It's

31:49 not that anymore It's it's really I think SEOs probably would underestimate the

31:54 power of the brand like building a brand um and making sure that brand does well And then when you get that traffic to

32:00 your website don't just think that traffic is going to be there tomorrow Make sure whatever traffic you're

32:05 getting that you're able to go ahead and capture that audience in other means

32:10 Maybe get them to sign up to your email list Get them to sign up uh subscribe to your social media Get them to you know

32:16 do some download your white paper Do something that they could become a lifetime prospect a lifetime customer as

32:22 opposed to just somebody who landed on your website today and might not find your website tomorrow So it's like uh

32:28 list building is getting more and more important having your audience with you

32:34 Yes Yes Now what what is your take versus link versus content how how

32:39 important is link is today's world i mean I think content is way more important um than links today There's I

32:46 think there's no doubt I don't know I'm not sure most I think most SEOs would would not disagree It used to be the

32:52 biggest debate back then is content king or link or or links king Today it's I think it's definitely content over links

What Changes Are Happening in Google Local Pack?

32:59 And when it comes to local SEO what do you think are going to be the changes when it comes to Google map because we

33:04 now start seeing Google playing with and AI because that's one area which is still untouched but that's one area I

33:12 mean lot of SEO agencies makes money Yeah I mean I think I I I would be

33:17 surprised if Google powered their local results fully based on an in AI overview

33:23 or AI mode I mean that data that Google has about businesses is so structured

33:29 from their hours of operation their name the services they offer to Google updates to reviews It's they have so

33:36 much good data that I could see Google summarizing the local pack and then

33:41 showing the local pack under it But I saw some examples of weirdness like you were pointing out in terms of like

33:47 showing AI overviews above local It doesn't make sense I don't think Google's it's not a good experience for for users So a lot of the Aros are not

33:53 great experiences for users but it the user thinks it's a good experience I

33:58 don't think the user by what I mean by that is I don't think the user a lot of that maybe hallucinate and they probably

34:06 technically are not a good experience for users searchers um but the searcher thinks it's a good

34:12 experience for them That's the big difference Like I speak to a lot of people are like I love chatbt it's great It tells me all this stuff and then I

34:18 show I ask them to show me example I'm like do you know this is wrong you know this is actually not correct The c these

34:24 AI answers are very very what they say confidently wrong There's a study done by the Columbia Journal of Review that

34:30 says like 60% or more of the AI answers are incorrect Um and they're confidently

34:36 incorrect They act like they're right and people just believe it So while AI answers may be what searchers like I

34:45 don't think they're going to like an AI answer for a local like show me local like find a store that has these I think

34:52 they want the local pack specifically coming from that content They might want to summarize it and act accurately summarize it with an AI overview and

34:59 then show the results but I don't think um it's I don't think a user would enjoy that experience when it comes to local

What’s Your Take on ChatGPT?

35:05 specific Right Right Right Now uh what exactly is your take when it comes to

35:11 chat GP because now a lot of people uh I mean in terms of traffic we keep on saying chat GP is now the 10th largest

35:18 site being wasted nine so keeps on going those stats So what do you think is going to happen in a next couple of

35:24 years are we going to be optimizing more for chat GPT less for Google or is it a Google Yahoo moment which or it started

35:32 it all i don't I um honestly I think I think Google is worried I mean look at

35:38 all the changes they're making I think you speak to a lot of people there there are a lot of people actually going to chat GPT They used to try go to Tik Tok

35:45 again Chat GPT might not provide a best answer Tik Tok might not be the right best answer but user behavior is

35:50 changing and Google yes is trying to adapt to it So I do think Google has a

35:56 lot to worry about when it comes to it Will Chat GBT have you know 80% search

36:01 market share in 10 years from now i have no idea Um will they have you know 5%

36:07 market share in a year from now i really don't know They're they're growing really really quickly Uh but Google's

36:13 decline is not happening that fast with that So I don't know I'm not sure how to I don't know that I can't predict I last

36:19 time I predicted was like 20 years when Microsoft first launched their first search engine I'm like "Yeah Microsoft's going to kill Google." Uh and I was

36:26 completely wrong And I have a good reason to say why Microsoft was going to kill Google because back then there was no Chrome there was no Android Um it was

36:32 basically you you had a computer It was usually a Windows computer which was powered by Microsoft and the default

36:38 search engine on that was MSN search And people went to MSN search and typed in Google to go to Google which was pretty

36:44 funny right so I was wrong but I don't know

36:50 right I mean I still see a lot of common people not getting into charge that as much as much because I think we are in

36:56 the middle of everything so we see everything like being doing everything around us but I think still people their

37:02 go to search engine for normal people is still Google for most of the

37:08 times now what advice would you give to young professionals entering the digital

What Advice Do You Have for Young Digital Marketing Professionals?

37:14 marketing and web development field today I made a joke just the other day on my YouTube channel basically saying

37:22 if you're going to get into SEO now don't Instead become a lawyer because Google needs to hire a lot of lawyers They're constantly getting sued Um so um

37:29 I don't know I mean SEO is not a great space to be in in my opinion Um now

37:37 um especially if you're like not good at change and so forth Paid search is still great I think

37:44 um you know technical SEO is still important all that type of stuff is but it's changing really quickly So um if

37:52 you don't really love change and you don't like you you have a hard time with

37:58 change then I would not recommend you get into SEO If you do love change and you do love like what's every day

38:03 something kind of new um and you handle that well then SEO would be a good job for you

38:09 Okay And what is your take on AI agents because I mean I've been doing a lot of podcast and it seems the AI agent is the

38:15 next thing which is going to happen and that's where the money is going to be for these search engine and giants So

38:21 what is your take on that yeah I mean that's the you summed it up very well Um

38:27 I don't I'm a little nervous for a a for small businesses when it comes to AI agents right like who's going to like

38:34 Google can't integrate with everybody I guess they can They have the shopping graph but when you book a flight I mean

38:39 who's Google Google going to use expedia or a small mom and pop um travel agency or will they go directly to United

38:45 Airlines American Airlines or whatever your one of these big airlines and have a direct feed into them book do the

38:51 booking directly through them right i don't know I mean I think AI agents maybe I'm misunderstanding it but I think AI agents is not a really good

38:57 thing for small businesses And um I'm a little worried for them but I could be completely off base and AI agents may be

39:04 something that just comes and goes and it's not a big deal but I don't know I it's it's a it's very it's very interesting to follow and I'm following

39:10 it really closely but I'm still not really sure what's going to happen with it in the future

39:18 The other day I was talking with Mary Hens and she was talking about age and she said that uh she talked to some of

39:24 the Google executive and they said that for 20 years the users had Google for free on the expense of the paid ads and

39:32 now it's think that that's where the AI agents going to come in You're going to have a sales AI agent You're going to have an H agents and the small

39:39 businesses and all of us will be paying for those AI agents and that's where

39:44 Google thinks they will make more money rather than giving us free searches It could be Um it it could be I mean

39:52 every search engine that was created even back in the Ashes days was about task completion getting something like

39:59 you you search for something why search for it and give give me an answer why not just do it for me and I think that's

40:05 where people want to go task completions and stuff like that Um and AI agents make a lot of sense for that But again

40:12 who's going to where you going to buy that product from where you going to get that airline ticket from where you going to go ahead and uh you know book that

40:19 doctor appointment at and who's going to decide that is it going to be the user or the or the AI so

40:26 it's it's going to be hard which doctor to book an appointment with So that's something I I would not like my agent AI

40:33 agent to decide about my doctor at least I don't think Right Right My kids might

40:38 but I won't Yeah Yeah I don't know It's going to be a very interesting time to watch over the next couple years around

40:44 that for sure Now let's talk a little bit about content strategy in a postclick words of

Why Is Digital PR and Brand Building Important for SEO?

40:50 course with AI overviews Now you also often stress the value of digital PR and brand building especially with declining

40:57 organic clicks Can you expand on why that's the key for SEO now

41:03 because you need to have the if if if people are going to read an AI overview or an AI answer and people aren't going

41:08 to click on those results but they see your brand show up over and over and over again for those queries in a people

41:14 might go ahead and say you know what I heard about this brand Maybe I should just check out their website And that's that's the key there is to get your

41:21 brand in these AI overviews that it's mentioned enough where people actually want to go to your website and then call you or whatever

41:28 Now now the talks are will there be any websites relevant because what we were thinking is that very soon we will be

41:34 optimizing our websites for AI agents rather than human beings or we might not need need a website

41:41 Yeah I think these AI I think everything I think it it you need it you definitely

41:47 need a website still Uh I wouldn't go ahead and say delete your website today Um but you like you said there will be

41:54 AI agent integration paths to these websites and that's going to change a lot It's like it's like think about like

42:00 people like complaining about structured data back in the early days of feeding Google everything They don't really need to show me They don't need to show up

42:06 anywhere But eventually they people need to go to a specific website to actually accomplish a task And with AI agents

42:12 maybe that AI agent that interfaces website will complete it behind the scenes for you But you're still going to

42:18 need something in the back end at least for that Um and yeah so I don't know Again it's super early I don't I don't

42:23 know how this is all gonna roll out Um but it should be interesting to follow because because I believe that very soon

42:30 we will be optimizing for a our websites for AI agents as well I mean that's what LLM's going to be doing So maybe that's

42:37 the agents going to come and I going to have my website ready built around them rather than the human beings

42:45 right now Blogging is something of course you still believe in Uh why why

Why Have You Never Offered SEO Services?

42:50 do you think long-term authentic blogging still has a role

42:55 it's part of branding honestly It's it's it's it's you I mean it's hard to start a new blog these

43:03 days and become an authority in that space but if you do you that'd be great Could you do that it's possible definitely Um but it's hard and I've

43:10 been doing SEO blogging for 20 plus years And generally when you think of an SEO blogger you think of I'm probably

43:16 one of the names you think of one of you know there's probably a short list of names I'm probably one of those people And right that's important because it

43:22 builds your brand and authority I mean it's too bad I don't sell SEO services It's too bad I don't you know make I

43:28 don't really monetize it but you know I think there's a lot of people in the in the spaces that are experts in certain

43:35 areas be across marketing technologies to analytics to whatever that you think of you say you know Google analytics or

43:41 G4 you think of this person or that person you speak about you know a tissue

43:46 you probably think about Kleenex their brand um Google's you

43:51 know sorry Google's known for being search they want to be known for AI as well so you think of AI you think of

43:56 chatgbt and open AAI Um you want to be that brand and blogging does still help

44:02 with that Um writing content going on these videos and webinars um being on

44:08 people's podcast um going to conferences speaking at events uh answering some

44:14 questions for for reporters all helps build your brand and authority uh which can then do well also in AI overviews

44:21 and AI answers as well Yeah I I've seen although we have never optimized our website for AI overviews

44:27 but we generally come when people are talking about SEO services in India I've been doing it for last 23 years and of

44:33 course speaking in a lot of conferences So I see the value out there

44:38 Yeah Now one interesting thing you just mentioned and it just came to me as a question that why did you never thought

44:45 of offering an SU services as I thought of it but I do well with my software

44:52 development company um and there is a very very

44:57 um how do I say this um there's a very very um I guess respectful thing or thing

45:05 where I could say I could write my own thoughts and not be biased based on me selling SEO services There's a lot of

45:11 seen a lot of SEO blog posts over the years write things because it might hurt

45:18 their business Like maybe they were really big into link building and Google was like going after links for a long period of time They would say "Oh

45:24 Google's after these types of links but not those types of links." Or they were a content development firm and they were

45:29 building out content that was really fluffy and you have to write certain amount of words They would write things in order to make their businesses and

45:35 their strategies look good for their customers and themselves And I don't have that to worry about that I could just say what I think is true without

45:41 having any you know pullback or push back from to do it right now Now I know

45:49 you said you predicted something 20 years back and didn't happen Now now let's let's try one this time and maybe

What Are Your Bold SEO Predictions for the Next 5 Years?

45:56 we'll revisit after five years with this podcast Now if you had to make one bold

46:01 predictions for where SEO is heading in the next five years what would it be um I think it's going to be a lot of the

46:07 same I think I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised a lot of the

46:12 same type of stuff they're doing Um at least today not like 10 you know 20 years ago per se but maybe today Um

46:20 still building out great content that helps promote the brand Um still trying to implement I may not structure data

46:26 but maybe it is structured data Ways where these search engines or AI bots could actually get to your content in a

46:32 very very easy way um and maybe a path like where they could actually integrate

46:37 with your content Again a lot of this stuff is around like structured data and content development And I think that's still going to be a very important part

46:43 with SEO because where else are these AI engines going to get their their content from where else are they going to get

46:49 the answers from or where else are they going to be able to perform these AI agent services if they don't have a path into your system so I think it's going

46:55 to be fairly similar just different in that sense that you're serving a

47:00 different type of AIP like a different type of search engine interface right because the biggest

47:06 challenge which I find right now is uh with Google you get 10 results with chat GPT you only get one so it's it's hard

47:13 for an SEO to sell SEO in the future when there's just going to be one result answering your giving you an answer well

Will Google Still Dominate Search by 2030?

47:21 that one result could include multiple brand mentions and so forth So

47:26 Yes it's still playing out We don't know how it's going to settle but yes because the other day I was talking that a lot

47:32 of people now use chat GPT for recipes They don't go onto a recipe and it comes out perfectly well Now uh do you think

47:39 Google will still dominate search by 2030 or we are are we entering a new paradigm

47:47 we kind of discussed this before I I don't know Um I think I think there's a

47:52 lot of reason to think Google will suffer a lot in terms of their market share over the coming years right not

47:58 just because of AI and chatbt and perplexity and other search other search solutions but also because of the

48:03 Department of Justice what's going on there I think that's going to play a role It all depends So I'm not sure

48:09 Okay With that we came to the last segment of our show which is rapid fire So you're just going to answer what

Rapid Fire Questions

48:15 comes first in your mind So okay So ready i'm ready when you are

48:22 Okay Favorite SEO myths to debunk

48:29 Um God that's not a quick one I don't nothing's um links being overvalued

48:38 Okay Okay Most underrated tool or resources for agencies

48:45 uh search console Okay One thing you wish every client understood about search

48:53 the you know it takes time for a piece of content It could be seconds but it takes Google has to actually find that

48:59 piece of content for it to be indexed and shown in search Okay A book or a podcast you recommend

49:07 um I like uh the marketing clock podcast a lot from Greg Finn and his and his

49:12 team Okay Uh what's next for Barry

49:18 what's next no same thing Consistent Do the same thing over and over again That's what you like

Outro

49:26 All right Uh Barry this has been an absolute incredible conversation and thank you so much for joining us today

49:32 and sharing just your expertise but also the journey and personal insights that

49:37 have shaped your voice in this SEO world Thanks so much for all you do as well I appreciate it and uh keep up the good

49:43 work Yeah And uh and for our subscribers if you enjoyed today's episode please

49:48 take a moment to subscribe leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and share this episode with someone in

49:53 your network who is obsessed with SEO digital marketing or just love great conversations And don't forget every

50:00 week on the Agency Insider Show we bring you inside the minds of the people shaping the future our industry I'm your

50:05 host Navit Koshell signing off Thank you