Podcast With Ryan Jones

The Secret to Competing with Big Brands in SEO with Ryan Jones

Show Notes

Discover the secret to competing with big brands in SEO and learn how to rank your website number 1 with our step-by-step guide! I'm thrilled to share insights from my conversation with Ryan Jones, a seasoned SEO expert, who unveils powerful SEO strategies for 2025. Whether you're a beginner or an advanced user, this guide will empower you to drive more organic traffic and achieve a #1 ranking. We'll explore techniques like SEO testing, understanding search intent, and the impact of internal linking. Stay updated with the latest SEO trends and enhance your search engine rankings with proven strategies. Ready to take your website to the top? Want me to help you rank number 1? Dive into the video now and unlock your site's potential! Don't forget to subscribe for more insights and strategies.

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction

00:47 - SEO Journey Beginnings

02:51 - SEO to Web Development Transition

03:46 - Nurturing Young Talent in Agencies

05:03 - Understanding SEO Testing

07:20 - Effective SEO Testing Components

09:36 - Duration of SEO Tests

11:05 - Running SEO Tests Effectively

12:42 - Unexpected Insights from SEO Testing

16:51 - Common SEO Testing Mistakes

20:37 - Effective SEO Test Strategies

23:45 - Timing for SEO Testing

24:51 - Boldness in SEO Testing

27:02 - Risk Taking Post-Google Updates

30:46 - Examples of Successful Risks

32:40 - Future of AI in SEO Testing

34:16 - SEO Testing Evolution in 5 Years

36:06 - Upcoming Updates in SEO Testing

36:46 - Competing with Big Brands in SEO

39:12 - Building Topical Authority

45:00 - Importance of Internal Linking

48:20 - Internal Linking for Diverse Content

50:15 - E-Commerce SEO Challenges

51:44 - Overlooked Technical SEO Issues

53:01 - Transitioning to Broader Marketing Roles

55:48 - SEO for Niche Manufacturing Industries

58:02 - Staying Updated with SEO Trends

59:53 - Surprising Changes in SEO Industry

01:01:27 - Exciting Upcoming Projects

01:02:10 - Final Advice for Listeners

01:02:44 - Subscribe to The Agency Insider Show

Transcript

Introduction

0:01 welcome to the agency Insider the podcast just brings you insights from the brightest Minds in digital marketing

0:07 I'm your host navit kosel and today we are thrilled to have with us ran Jones a

0:12 Seasons Su expert in dig digital marketing strategist ran started his SEO

0:18 Journey at just 16 years of age uh which is very early of course and has since

0:23 worked with major brand spoken at industry conferences and now works as a marketing manager with SEO testing

0:32 [Applause]

0:37 [Music] ran welcome to the show thank you for

0:44 having me happy to be here yes so ran you started your resue journey of course

SEO Journey Beginnings

0:49 at 16 through an apprentice apprenticeship I am not wrong and how

0:55 has that early start shaped your perspective on the industry compared to those who ENT

1:00 later and uh first of all why would you start at 16 the journey in

1:06 Su okay so I'll answer the second question first so I started kind of in a

1:13 way it's still kind of like any SEO starts their journey in the fact that SEO wasn't really the sort of career

1:18 path that that I I specifically chose uh the way the school system works in in the UK is you have to stay in in some

1:24 form of Education until you're 18 whether that's um College University that kind of thing I was always very

1:31 adamant that I didn't want to go to university I I didn't think i' that's that's not the way I learned that's not the way I I just I knew I wouldn't have

1:37 enjoyed it and after a conversation with my career as counselor we decided that

1:43 an apprenticeship was probably the best route but I still didn't I still didn't have any idea of what I wanted to do in

1:49 terms of my actual career so I knew I always knew I was good with computers I I enjoyed doing stuff on computers so

1:57 chose a marketing apprenticeship under the under the vision that if I didn't enjoy it I could just leave and uh yeah

2:03 ended up just falling in love with falling in love with marketing and uh yeah been in been in marketing for this

2:08 is this is my 10th year now so I've been in quite a while and then in terms of

2:14 How It's it shaped my sort of understanding of it I think I think I maybe maybe I'm a bit

2:22 biased but I think I've because I've always learned by doing is is I've been able to to make mistakes very early on

2:29 that that people maybe when you're coming out of University at sort of I don't know 20 22 23 or whatever whatever

2:35 the age is when you come out of uni already been and done those mistakes when I was sort of 16 17 and I've been

2:41 able to learn from them and yeah it's put me in a good position now being being the age I am with very nearly a

2:47 decade of experience now but yeah still living it still living every second so so earlier in your career you

SEO to Web Development Transition

2:54 transition from SEO to web development right yeah for for a little bit yeah so

3:00 what prompted this shift and how did those web development skills benefits you when you return to SEO and I mean

3:09 why did you return to SEO eventually the simple answer is I returned to SEO because I enjoyed it more than doing any

3:14 web development really my first apprenticeship uh was only a an 18 month

3:19 apprenticeship with me being 16 when I started it still meant that I had to be in some form of Education until uh for

3:27 at least another six months so I picked another friendship uh in something that would sort of complement it and and what

3:34 what a better thing to complement SEO than web development I guess learning how websites are built yeah I think that gave me a give

3:41 me a good Advantage going forward okay so uh as a young professional who has

Nurturing Young Talent in Agencies

3:47 achieved significant success I mean what advice you would you give to agencies looking to nurture and uh retain young

3:56 Talent invest in them I was always given good opportunities when I was uh when I was younger I think having the advantage

4:02 of of working in agencies when I was the age I was I was sent to conferences and I was able to learn from the sort of

4:09 more experienced people in uh in the business but yeah if you if you continue invest to invest in your staff I think

4:17 that they'll continue to invest in you in the same way with by by sort of brand loyalty and that kind of thing I've

4:22 never had a bad experience at a job as far as I can and as far as I can really remember I think that's that's down to

4:29 sort of picking the right employers but also taking advantages of all the learning opportunities that they gave

4:35 and then and sort of giving back when I can yeah that's uh very right it's one

4:41 should always I mean if you invest early in the employees of course the the the

4:46 problem which agencies face is that people come very late and then they are not accustomed to the process of the

4:53 agencies or some when you when you hire young you can actually train them better and of course

4:59 then you get more value out of it I agree with that now let's talk about testing of course that's what we want to

Understanding SEO Testing

5:06 understand more so how important uh uh so first of all can you tell us more

5:12 about how Su testing.com works and how uh user can benefit benefit from it I

5:18 means what is the value of it yeah so SEO testing is a testing tool I mean

5:24 course in the name but we we work with Google search consoles AP

5:30 which allows us to funnel all of uh your Google search console data through our system and we we have a few different

5:36 test types that allow you to you can make a change on your site whether it's something as like a massive scale as as

5:42 kind of like a site migration or something really simple is just to like changing the internal link structure of

5:48 of the site or adding a few internal links to to a new blog post that you've got and the testing types allow us to

5:56 monitor the data for for that particular page or set of pages that you're testing on and and really show whether it's been

6:03 a successful test or not and I think the advantages come from that because and when we think about it we've since seo's

6:10 been a thing we've kind of always done some variant of SEO testing in a sense that we'd we'd look at some rankings and

6:16 say okay this page isn't particularly ranking as high as we want it to be let's change some things and then let's

6:22 see where it ranks in sort of I don't know a month two months that kind of thing but this gives us a better data

6:28 driven approach is we can really drill down and see okay we added 15 internal links to this this page and we can see

6:35 that the traffic to this page has gone from I don't know say like 150 P visits per month to like 300 pages per month so

6:42 you can say that that's been 100% increase so it just in terms of the advantages it gives it gives seos that

6:49 chance to show the value of the work that they do I think sometimes SEO can go under the radar a lot especially when

6:56 cons like compared directly to PPC or something like that something that that can have really measurable impact

7:02 straight away so it really allows us as seos to feel a bit more value so we can

7:08 we can go to the higher ups and say look we we've done this and it's resulted in this and then you can then obviously go

7:14 on and and look at conversion metrics and that kind of thing but that's a whole of the of the cattle of fish okay so I believe it's as important

Effective SEO Testing Components

7:22 for the agencies as for the companies doing SEO inhouse as well yeah yeah

7:27 absolutely so uh We've we've got fair fair few agency clients at SEO testing who whether they're doing it for their

7:33 own agency or they have SEO testing accounts for for clients but yeah for

7:38 for for agencies as well as in-house again it's just it allows us to to show that value we can say that in if it's an

7:46 agency for example they have like an end of month report and they can say look here here is everything that we've done

7:51 this month with' I don't know built this many back links we've added these internal links or we've done a Content

7:58 Refresh on these pages and here are the results that it's that it's driven okay and so just for the

8:06 understanding which part of the SEO does testing works better so of course you have access to so much data so is it the

8:12 content is it the internal links is it the title and meta changes I mean if

8:18 somebody has to start doing SE testing today what should be the key areas to focus on when starting your Su

8:26 testing yeah I think uh I kind of wanted to refrain from giving an it depends answer in a podcast uh but yeah may

8:33 maybe that maybe maybe the answer does have to come in a little bit here but yeah there there are there are a few things that you can do straight off the

8:39 bat when you uh when you start up with with any SEO testing to all whether it's SEO testing or not but start with

8:46 simpler changes you can you can just see how see how whatever software you're using works you can add I don't know

8:52 just pick a pick a blog post that may be particularly underperforming and say like okay let's add some internal links

8:57 in relevant places to to this particular post or if you wanted to go a bit bit

9:02 deeper into it you can do a Content refresh or that kind of thing I uh not sure whether I'd necessarily advise

9:08 starting with an SEO testing tool and then immediately saying okay let's migrate to to Wordpress or something

9:14 like that and picking like big massive project right off the bat but uh but yeah start start small and work your way

9:20 up as you as you understand how again it depends whatever whatever tool you're using it uh it doesn't necessarily

9:27 matter but yeah start start and get familiar with with the tool that you're using and uh and then yeah you can do

9:32 more advanced tests as you go on so so SE your testing when doing should it be

Duration of SEO Tests

9:38 done page level or should it be done on an Su level and how long one typically

9:43 should be doing an Su test I mean till I mean how long should you give it for a

9:48 test is it a day or a week or a month or how does it yeah so you can do it you can do it across a whole site or you can

9:55 do it on a page level it really depends on on what you're testing we've got clients and I and previously to me

10:01 working for SEO testing I was actually an SEO testing customer and I worked for an e-commerce site so we did a lot of

10:08 split testing we'd pick like a hundred of our product landing pages and then we

10:14 test against another group of a 100 pages that we didn't make the change on so you can do it Page by Page or you can

10:20 do it across a whole site or you can do it for a group of pages and then in terms of in terms of the test length we

10:27 we kind of recommend as as sort of like a can response we kind of recommend six to eight weeks to to run a test but it's

10:34 you can get meaningful results in shorter times it really depends on how much traffic the page gets or or what

10:41 you're testing on if if you if you're doing a test on a page that doesn't necessarily get that much traffic you

10:47 should probably run the test for longer so you can have more meaningful results but if if you're running a test on a site that got gets I don't know millions

10:54 of clicks then you're going to drive meaningful data almost straight away so you could potentially also right run

11:01 that test for for two weeks and still have statistically significant results okay so it's more about SEO

Running SEO Tests Effectively

11:08 testing unless you get more click datas it's or it's not going to help because you need because it's primary powered

11:15 with Google search console AP right yeah yeah be yeah we've uh yeah primar

11:21 powered with uh with Google search console we do integrate with G4 as well just to give you the ability to track

11:28 different kind of events and stuff but yeah with it with it being primarily click-based you can still run

11:33 statistically significant tests when you when you're running on Lower clicks but you just need to make sure that that

11:39 you're running the test for a long enough period of time to to generate enough click and and does it work on a

11:45 impression level too does it work on a what level sorry Impressions so when Google search consoles gives you the

11:52 Impressions increasing so does that data also comes into play here yep y all the

11:57 all the Google search console data comes in so uh primarily we we work on clicks but we also pull through Impressions

12:03 click-through rate average position number of cck queries that kind of things so yeah you can yeah anything

12:09 within Google search consoles API you can you can test on you so I'm sure we've got clients who were who run tests

12:16 and say we actually just want to rank for more queries that's what we want to do so on anev how many test run on a on

12:24 a daily basis or a weekly basis oh I don't have that data it's uh is quite a

12:30 lot I can assure you that it's it's quite a lot even just the tests that we're running on a daily basis we've got a fair few running every day yeah

12:36 without looking at the AC customer data I would be able to tell you okay okay uh

Unexpected Insights from SEO Testing

12:42 so so of course I asked what kind of a testing works better so let me rephrase

12:47 and try to get answer from you so so can you share an unexpected Insight you have gained from a recent testing at Su

12:55 testing yeah yeah so one I think one specific thing that we we didn't

13:01 necessarily think would have the impact that it did was as a standard process for for a good while now we've been

13:07 writing blog content and then we've been creating YouTube content to to go along

13:13 with that um on and Publishing to YouTube obviously and yeah we kind of just had a theory that if we if we

13:20 embedded our YouTube videos to to sort of top level in the blog posts we uh

13:26 then we'd probably see we we'd probably see some sort of impact people might be staying on page longer and and that kind

13:31 of thing but we ran the first few tests and uh and we were seeing like Pages

13:37 double in traffic just just by embedding just by embedding the YouTube video so obviously not all of our Pages have have

13:44 doubled in traffic when we've uh when we've done this this kind of test but yeah I did I did look at the data

13:50 actually the other day for a LinkedIn post but I think it was across the 40 pages or so that we've we've done this

13:56 particular test on or something like that we've we've seeing an average of a 40 something per increase in clicks to

14:03 to those pages yeah it doesn't it doesn't happen with every page some pages they'll still maybe even decline

14:09 in traffic and some pages will go go up 200% but yeah averaged out it yields a

14:16 40% increase so that that was definitely something unexpected we weren't expecting the sort of level of results

14:22 just from a a very simple change as like adding a HTML snippet right so so did

14:28 the did the rankings changed or what was the traffic I mean you incorporate

14:33 YouTube so how did the where did this traffic Source originated this I mean the increase my personal opinion on on

14:40 that particular test is I think and we've seen with the recent algorithm leaks that uh I'm sure everyone's heard

14:46 about and spoken enough about by now so I won't go into into a massive amount of detail on that but uh we know we we've

14:53 known for a while and and and ran fishkin was the I think the one who sort of pioneered it and championed it well

14:58 he was back still doing in his SEO days we've known that Google uses click data

15:04 and onpage data for a while we don't necessarily know what level they use it and to what extent but I think everyone

15:09 knows that on page data has some sort of effect and our our hypothesis was if we

15:15 can keep people on the site for longer or or we can keep them like get them clicking on an extra element of the page

15:21 in this case a YouTube video then I think the rankings would would improve

15:27 because Google might say well they'd be able to see wouldn't they that that okay with this page had previously had an

15:34 engagement rate metric of I don't know 25% or something and now it's 60% for example then that would be that would be

15:40 in line for them to to give it a nice rankings boost for for some particular queries but yeah we also see traffic

15:46 coming from when we obviously we're supplementing the the YouTube content we uh we also see traffic coming from a

15:52 different particular places or or whether it's coming through through videos and then people Landing back on

15:57 the site but uh but yeah from a from a purely SEO and organic point of view I think that particular increase has come

16:04 from the Improvement of on page metrics okay so it's it's more to do

16:09 with the Duell time the the more the Dell time is the the traffic St that's

16:16 yeah yeah yeah dwell time maybe they're picking up more events on the page with with them clicking HTML element stay

16:22 yeah staying on page longer maybe even less of I don't particularly use balance rate anymore but maybe people are

16:29 bouncing less and going back to Google less with the YouTube video on there I mean people people take in information

16:35 in different in different ways I personally prefer to to watch video content rather than than read a 20,000

16:41 word blog post or something like that but yeah yeah so uh I think yeah

16:47 it's it's been beneficial all around now now uh let's talk about some

Common SEO Testing Mistakes

16:53 of the I mean based on your experience so what are some of the common mistakes businesses made when implementing SE

17:01 testing and how do you think they can avoid these pitfalls yeah I think uh one common mistake is is not running tests

17:09 for long enough and and trying to trying to analyze a test result that might not be statistically significant when it can

17:16 be especially if it's something like I don't know if you if a page for example only gets 10 clicks and you're trying to

17:23 run a test for for a week and you you're in that sort of Realm of of not necessarily being able to say for sure

17:30 that that whatever change has happened has happened because of what you've done or whether it because we know that

17:37 Google changes the algorithm so many so many times even even without publishing core updates so you don't know whether

17:42 it's something that's algorithmic algorithmically happened or whether it is down to what you've done on the page

17:49 so I think that's probably the the the biggest mistake is is not letting tests run for long enough or maybe trying to

17:56 test the wrong type of things almost for if you it depends on what your goals are obviously but if you're trying to

18:03 uh trying to improve traffic for a blog post and you and then you suddenly test

18:09 on something completely different then then yeah when when maybe content refreshes is that kind of thing and

18:16 another mistake I I think probably happens is not then following through

18:21 with with what's happened if if someone does for example a Content Refresh on a

18:26 site and then sees or or on a page even and then sees I don't know a 200%

18:32 increase in clicks and they just say okay that's cool and then failing to follow through with that sort of

18:38 precedent that's been created whereas we look at it from a a perspective of okay a Content refresh generates good results

18:45 we can increase traffic so let's do it across other pages that need to that need to do

18:50 it so does that happen let's say you mentioned content refresh so I just want to your take so let's say we do a

18:56 Content Refresh on one page and we see a jump in traffic so I believe that it's not it is very much possible it might

19:03 not be valid for all the pages right so it's not that you do one test and apply on thousands of your blocks what is your

19:09 take on that yeah yeah it's it's not it's not something that's going to be uniform across across all Sites across

19:16 all page types I think if if it's a business for example that has a lot of

19:21 blog content like ourselves for instant we we've invested heavily on blog content since um since since SEO

19:27 testing's been around and also since I've joined the business on the marketing side I think content refreshes can have a lot more of an impact for

19:34 sort of content-based sites especially when the content refreshes are done right but it might not necessar it might

19:41 not course of action for an e-commerce site or an agency site who only has sort

19:47 of services pages and that kind of thing if it was an e-commerce site I'd potentially be looking at maybe

19:52 improving the on page metrics or creating a better site structure and and

19:58 bettering internal linking and that kind of thing but uh yeah it's a case of for whatever site you're you're working on

20:04 and whatever site you're testing on it's a case of learning from your tests and

20:10 so if you if you see an update on one particular page type has gone has gone well then you you should test again and

20:16 again and again and you should you should have an overall theory of what of what happens we wouldn't

20:21 necessarily make big business driven decisions on one test but if we've got a

20:28 history of of running the same kind of test and the same kind of responses happening then yeah we might be more

20:34 likely to make a decision based on that okay so so in in I mean just to

Effective SEO Test Strategies

20:40 idea what kind of su test workboard is it testing the content refresh is this the title I mean what makes more sense

20:47 for somebody to do the test or there is no rule

20:52 for yeah it's it really again it really depends on on what what you're trying to

20:58 achieve it also depends on what sort of budget you have or what time you have available to do it for example running a

21:05 Content refresh might not be the best for everyone especially if it's a new blog post for instance you don't you don't want to publish a blog post and

21:11 then two weeks later say okay this clearly isn't working let's rework the entire piece but if it was a newer piece

21:18 of content for instance then I'd be sort of looking at internal Linkin that kind

21:23 of thing or building and acquiring external back links from other websites obviously to that particular blog post

21:30 but if it's a blog post that's been sat there for a while and it's kind of stagnated from that sort of you you

21:36 generous see an initial sort of bit of traffic when it's first been published and then maybe it's stagnated then maybe

21:42 you can look at a Content refresh for that kind of thing but but yeah it's it's going to be different for every

21:47 business e-commerce sites again for example I keep using e-commerce example because that's where uh that's where

21:52 I've got a bit of a background in but uh yeah they might they might be less inclined to invest in content completely

21:59 and they they might just say look we the plps and the pdps is what make us our money so we're going to just test

22:06 improvements on those and they they might test out a new build of a of a product landing page and that kind of

22:12 thing and that they might see an impact that way in the same side an agency site might test on an onpage basis and they

22:20 might be tracking a load of ga4 events of like CTA being clicked or that that

22:26 thing and they might decide to test on okay we've got these Services pages so we're going to add a load of customer

22:31 testimonials and and see if that keeps people on page longer we're going to see if that keeps people if that allows them

22:37 to to have customers click more ctas and that kind of thing so interesting you bought a CTA

22:44 example so does SU testing works on PPC landing page as well I think it should

22:50 not PPC purely because it's we run with obviously Google search consoles API so

22:57 for we're more of a less of a a PPC testing system and more of um more of an SE system that being

23:05 said with the ga4 integration it does allow you to test on

23:11 not necessarily SEO based metrics you could have if you've got some landing pages for instance that are available to

23:18 to be found organically and you want to tests you can you can obviously create a

23:24 key event in G4 for that particular CTA being clicked and then you can make a

23:30 change to that landing page and say okay we can see that whatever we've done has

23:35 made more people click this particular CTA but again yeah it comes organically

23:41 through um through Google search consoles API okay so so most of the Su testings I

Timing for SEO Testing

23:47 mean would it happen when somebody has lost rankings or does SU testing works

23:53 well to mitigate risk which use case is better describ sir I really think there's a a better

24:00 use case we've we've got customers and clients and that kind of thing that that do it for for different reasons we've

24:06 got we've got sort of big businesses who have like a standard level of traffic who are looking to to make better use

24:12 and and get more traffic for instance when they've kind of stagnated or we

24:17 have people who are making use of the reports that we've got to try and recover from an algorithm update for

24:23 example if they've been hit by a core update then they might be looking at some of the reports and saying okay that

24:29 the these Pages have really declined so we need to work on these particular pages and then we've got we got we've

24:35 got newer businesses who are using SEO testing as a way to find what works in their Niche um yeah I don't necessarily

24:42 think there's a better or worse use case I think it just depends on what you're wanting to use it for whe and what sort

24:49 of stage you're at uh all right so so I believe that it's important for

Boldness in SEO Testing

24:56 a company to do you say that it's important for a company to take uh bold

25:02 Su testing or bold risk or do they not need to do

25:08 that yeah again it it again I'm trying to rephrase from using it depends but uh

25:14 sometimes that's the only answer that you can give but it again really it really depends on the business and what

25:20 your tolerance for risk is if you're and to to I suppose use an agency example

25:26 it's it's also going to you might as an agent agency you might feel more comfortable taking bold risks on your

25:31 own site or if you've got test sites for example that you use to and say okay if

25:36 if we do something and the traffic goes to zero it's not necessarily going to matter so you can take more bold risks

25:43 on on those kind of pages if you've got test sites or your own agency site for example and you when you're not going to

25:50 be willing to do those same kind of tests on client sites because obviously

25:55 if if you make a change on the client site the traffic goes to zero bad thing happen but uh yeah it really depends and

26:02 this is why I think a canned bit of advice for people in SEO whe whether your agency side or or inhouse or a

26:09 freelance basis is is to always have test sites that you have access to whether it can be anything it can be an

26:15 AFF affiliate site that you're building on the side or just a random blog that you just have traffic on and you and

26:22 then you can use those test sites to be bold and do those really risky

26:28 tests whereas that that you're not you're not going to be willing to do that on your own site or client sites and that kind of thing and and then you

26:34 can take the learnings from there and and maybe scale down the tests and then you can start implementing some stuff on

26:40 client websites based on what you've learned but yeah it really depends on what your your tolerance for risk is

26:46 some some businesses are going to be really bold and they'll say okay we have an idea we're just going to test it straight away and some are going to be a

26:53 bit more risk averse and and they might they might not run particular tests or

26:58 they might run s of scale down versions of the tests so so in the wake of recent

Risk Taking Post-Google Updates

27:04 Google updates of course one ended uh today earlier so how has the this risk

27:10 taker ability have you seen it increased or decreased in businesses in

27:17 general it's hard to say I can only go off what I've particularly seen and for

27:22 me what I've seen I think people are doing the same things that they've always done or always tried to do and

27:28 that's kind of create content that's valuable for the user or create content

27:34 that matches search intent and that kind of thing I do think you are seeing less

27:40 of these AI generated or like 100% AI generated content sites because I think

27:47 enough people have seen examples now of those sites just being tanked in whether

27:53 it was spam updates or a core update or or any kind of core algor

27:59 update but yeah in terms of in terms of people taking big more risks or less

28:04 risks I think people are I think people are more risk averse now because they have seen maybe an increased chance a

28:13 site going to Zero thanks to a core update I think people people will do what they are always going to do I think

28:18 I think it's hard to it's hard to change people's minds in the SEO industry and I also think that

28:27 it's hard for marketers is to have nice things because we tend to ruin it for everybody else so when when content

28:32 generation became like a big thing then you you saw immediately that there was these like programmatic SEO sites that

28:40 were that were being published everywhere or content sites that were 100% Ai and in my mind I would see that

28:46 as a big risk especially if it was what you were using to generate an income but yeah I think people will will do as

28:53 they've always done they will create content that's good for the user or they should be doing that very least and

28:59 they'll be they'll be testing on on on different things what what I also need

29:04 to so when there is a Google update do you see an up taken SEO testing I believe so we what we so what kind advice is to

29:12 stay away from doing SEO tests during a core update

29:17 right purely because if you run any sort of up test during an update it's going

29:23 to be really hard to say okay what we've done has increased page traffic by 100% or something like

29:30 that but you you you're not going to be able to say whether that's down to what you've done or whether that's the update

29:35 working on your side so we wouldn't necessarily say to test things during an update but we do

29:42 see a lot of tests happen post updates what what we generally tend to see is sites that lose traffic during updates

29:49 and sites that gain traffic as well it very rarely happens on a sitewide basis

29:55 it's not a case it's or it's generally not a case of you're losing x amount of

30:00 traffic to every single one of your pages what the the more realistic scenario is that it's one two three a

30:07 small number of big pages that have tanked and that's where we see the uptick in SEO testing because people

30:15 find out what pages have been affected they change certain things on that page based on what they understand the update

30:22 to be about and then they'll test to see whether that's then improved the page and bringing it back up so we we might

30:28 see people doing fullscale content refreshes on those pages that have been affected or they might work on acquiring

30:36 some back links to those pages or improving the internal Linkin and that kind of thing they're doing different

30:42 things on these pages that have been effect okay now uh just follow up about

Examples of Successful Risks

30:48 the risk taking so do you have an example of a time when a calculated risk

30:53 uh paid off or any example or successful example you can share

30:58 yeah I've got an example from my so previous to to me working at SEO testing obviously I was an SEO testing customer

31:05 and yeah one one thing that we did is we our hypothesis was that if we made a

31:11 certain change to I can't quite remember how many products we had but we were making a

31:16 change to a large number of of product pages a big proportion of product pages

31:23 and it was around the time that we'd sort of hit our sort of peak as a sort of business in terms of we were in the

31:29 sort of key sales period that we had where we were making the most sales and that kind of thing so it was probably a

31:35 risky time to test this kind of thing anyway but I'd say we were probably

31:40 about to make a change on probably a quarter of all of our product pages so obviously if that was to not be

31:48 effective or if it was to result in less traffic all of a sudden we've made a

31:53 change that is going to result to less traffic the to 25% of our entire product

32:00 range so a big risk to take but luckily we we saw a positive impact yeah the

32:06 flip side of that is we saw more traffic come into a quarter of our of our uh

32:12 product pages so yeah that that particular one paid off but yeah for for every successful test you you're going

32:18 to have uh one or at least one test that that doesn't quite works so well which is why we uh say to test on smaller

32:26 subsets of sites for I would necessarily go gungho and test on 25% of your entire

32:32 product range first but we've been testing for a while and we felt comfortable making that change based on previous tests that we've

32:39 done okay so so uh of course with the rise of su tools how do you balance the

Future of AI in SEO Testing

32:47 manual Su insights with automated tools and do you see a future where AI fully

32:52 automates SEO testing I don't personally see a future

32:59 where AI fully automates SE testing I see a future where AI plays a big role

33:08 in the SEO testing that's that's done and and that can come in different ways

33:13 I could say AI having a use case for providing testing ideas and and like you

33:21 might have an AI assistant built within a tool that says okay here I've looked at these pages and here are something

33:27 things that I think you should test on and then us going through and saying okay yeah we can test on that or we won't test on that or I suppose the flip

33:35 side of it is depending on how advanced AI does get which I imagine is going to

33:41 be very Advanced we might have a hypothesis ourselves and then use AI to

33:46 make the change on the pages for us and that kind of thing and then you can have

33:52 different bits you can have ai assistance in analyzing test results and that kind of thing you can even now you can plug the data into into chat GPT and

34:01 and ask it to analyze the results of a test for you but yeah I do see a world where AI does have an impact I don't

34:09 think it will be 100% but I think it will have a big help in

34:14 hand okay and uh I mean where do you see SEO testing evolving in let's say next

SEO Testing Evolution in 5 Years

34:20 five years and uh what technology or methods do you think will revolutionize The Way businesses approaches SU

34:28 Des well that's a good question I'd have to speak to the founder I think to have a better a better understand at least

34:35 from my personal point of view I'd like to we we obviously have targets where we want to be in terms of monthly recurring

34:42 revenue and and traffic and that kind of thing which I won't disclose here for obvious reasons but um but yeah we have

34:49 we have we have targets that we're looking to hit um in terms of where we want to be I think will have made

34:56 substantial changes to to the tool based on our own ideas that we think will

35:01 improve the tool and we we do Implement a lot of customer feedback as well so we

35:07 have an internal slack Channel where customers can share ideas and stuff and and obviously we all have emails and

35:13 stuff where people can can suggest ideas so I think the tool will be a lot more advanced going back to what we were just

35:20 saying about AI I I have a feeling there may be more potential Integrations with

35:26 chat GPT and that kind of thing as as that tool evolves and gets more advanced but yeah in terms of in terms of where

35:33 we want to be we we've got a good idea of where we want to be in and that's going to involve more different kinds of

35:41 blog content that kind of thing we obviously want to be doing more marketing stuff in terms of different Avenues we obviously have ideas of where

35:47 the tool is going to be and how many people are going to be using it and and we we kind of want to evolve to be one

35:54 of the key voices if we aren't already in terms of SEO testing and that kind of thing and and I think we're making the right stride to do that but there's

36:02 there's still a lot more work to do and I'm obviously excited to be doing up so any exciting new updates coming

Upcoming Updates in SEO Testing

36:09 with SE testing yeah we've got a few things in uh in the pipeline I uh I won't share on

36:15 here purely because I'm not sure of the stuff that we've shared internally that

36:21 isn't yet ready for for external use but but yeah we uh we we make up reles to

36:28 the tool every every single month yeah there's there there's there's different things coming we have we have different versions we've got stuff that's in um

36:35 private beta now and that kind of thing we've got stuff that's moving to to being released in the next sort of

36:41 couple of weeks or so and then we've got more longer term things that we want to be doing anyway all right let's talk a little bit

Competing with Big Brands in SEO

36:49 about Su strategies of course you've been doing Su for long so so how can uh

36:54 for a how can one compete with big branch when it comes to the is yeah absolutely so in turns of is I

37:03 think it all starts with with where your content comes from it's all well and good creating a big keyword list from

37:11 ahfs or something like that and they're putting a keyword in and say okay now we've got 700 content ideas that we

37:16 should all go in we should go create 700 pieces of content I don't I don't necessarily think works um that

37:23 works particularly well it can work obviously but uh I think you're going to have the best

37:29 success at least when you're starting out is by by listening to customers and that kind of thing finding out what problems they have and solving those

37:36 problems first and foremost our example is we have a big library of Google search console based

37:43 content because we're a tool that that uses Google search console that's

37:48 naturally we want to solve the problems that people are having with with Google search conso so we have a library of

37:54 content that ranks well about gsse and the problems that people are

37:59 the problems that people are having and we we'll tell them how to solve it and then at the end we'll just stick a little call to action and say if you're

38:06 interested in obviously using Google search console better then you might want to give us a try and that kind of

38:11 thing but one of our core values is is to just share everything that we know which is why we have a big library of

38:17 blog content about more General SEO stuff we have content about SEO testing we have content about Google search

38:22 console and and content coming about Google analytics and that kind of thing

38:27 so yeah start by solving the problems that your customers and potential customers are having that's a first and

38:34 foremost create content that matches search intent all all the sort of standard advice that that you get create

38:40 good content make sure your site's well optimized from a technical standpoint make sure you're acquiring relevant

38:47 backlinks as like first and foremost and then you can focus on back links that are like really high value but make sure

38:54 they're actually relevant to what you're writing about and that kind of thing as well I I think that has a better chance

39:00 of success and yeah I think you can you can take what the big brands are doing and

39:06 Implement that on a smaller scale and then as that scale grows you can do you can do more okay and and I mean more

Building Topical Authority

39:14 most of it sounds like topical Authority right yeah yeah absolutely yeah so uh we

39:20 focus a lot on um Google's eat metrics or well not necessarily metrics but yeah

39:26 we we try and we try and follow their guid when it comes to that we show the experience that we have we show that

39:32 we're an authority especially when it comes to like topics like Google search console we we I think we have a good

39:37 authority there already um and then we're trying to build different authorities for like ga4 based content

39:42 and that kind of thing but yeah it really just comes down to build building that topical Authority and that comes

39:48 from solving problems that people have so if if you're for example an agency

39:54 then you might want to solve the problems that people have with existing agencies and stuff like when like client

40:00 communication or something like that and then you can create content based on that um focus on to topical Authority

40:06 and there's obviously ways to build that one of the good one of the key ways is by creating good content but you can you

40:12 can acquire more Authority through backlink acquisition and that kind of

40:17 thing okay so so uh do you believe the topical Authority plays I mean what is

40:22 your take on the importance of topical Authority for small businesses as well

40:27 yeah I place a high amount of importance on topical Authority purely because we've seen that I mean to to give

40:34 traffic examples we when I joined SEO testing we were I think we were at the

40:40 stage where we were getting just over 2,000 organic visits a month something

40:45 like that uh and now we're at the stage where we've just crossed 15,000 organic

40:52 traffic um a month so we've we've grown and a lot of that has come from uh the

40:59 authority that we've built on Google search console we've invested a lot in specific Google search console based

41:06 content we have a whole library of of content we found now that we can write a

41:12 topic on Google search console and start ranking on page one pretty quickly for

41:19 that specific topic there's obviously different factors that come into that one it's because it's because it's a lot

41:25 easier to write uh or it's a lot easier to rank a piece of content for a keyword

41:32 such as like how accurate is Google search console for instance than it is to rank when you're looking at a keyword

41:38 as like SEO testing as a whole or something like that or or just a more General SEO topic yeah so we we're

41:45 really focusing on on topical Authority ourselves and I think that's because that's the the biggest needle mover that

41:52 we found is a lot of our traffic comes from R GSC content so we're now trying to do the same with different different

41:59 specific topics so do you have any specific framework which you follow for the

42:05 tropical Authority is there or is it generalized yeah we it's not necessarily

42:12 a specific workflow or anything like that um if we identified for example

42:18 obviously a couple of years ago we obviously identified that we wanted to Target this GSC based

42:25 content so created a list of keywords and that comes from different areas it

42:30 comes from obviously the use of SEO tools I'm not denying that we use SEO tools because we absolutely do but it

42:37 also comes from um speaking to customers obviously finding out what problems they have finding out where they first

42:44 started using our tool and that kind of thing and and building a whole list of keywords to Target and then clustering

42:51 that list of keywords and that kind of thing so we're not creating content that doesn't necessarily need to be created

42:57 um yeah there's not so there's not a specific framework in place but we have we have a sort of we have vague

43:05 guidelines that we follow when we want to do this type of stuff and there's people different people in the business

43:10 who have different hands in that and but yeah overall it's just it's making sure we cover as much of a specific topic as

43:19 possible okay and uh let's talk a little bit about the search intent I'm sure

43:25 with topical Authority the search intent also plays a role so how do you approach decoding and targeting different type of

43:32 search engine it really yeah it comes down to Content research and that kind of thing when it when we're looking at

43:37 intent and that kind of thing so we we might find for instance that if we're

43:43 writing um a Blog on how to solve a specific problem with Google search

43:48 console obviously the intent there is the user wants to find answers to the

43:54 problem that they're having and they want to be shown exactly how to fix it and that kind of thing so that's the content that we create we show them

44:01 exactly how to fix it we don't advertise SEO testing within that maybe until the very end and then say if you're having

44:09 this problem a lot then this is how we can help you blah blah blah but we'll

44:14 show them as a first Port call we we'll show them in the article we'll show them exactly how to fix the problem that they're having when it comes to

44:19 different type of content for example if if someone's Googled keyword clustering for

44:26 example they might they it might be a mixed intent keyword they might want to have a better idea of what keyword

44:33 clustering is or they might want to learn how to keyword cluster their own list of keywords and vice versa they

44:39 might want a combination of it but yeah it comes down to research he comes down

44:44 to to googleing for a start Google the keyword that you want to rank for see what's ranking up there already and then

44:50 creating the same type of content and then you can you can add different bits to it that might help the the user sort

44:57 of following that process okay and so what do you think in

Importance of Internal Linking

45:03 about internal linking and its importance in SEO internal linking is

45:09 massively important I think it's my personal opinion is is is one of the

45:14 most important things you can do I think for a lot of businesses it might even be more important than acquiring external

45:21 backlinks and yeah so I I've seen a lot of

45:27 smaller sites that have have had big increases in performance when they've improved the internal Linkin structure

45:33 of their site and that's excuse me simply because when Google crawl in your site

45:40 they use the internal links that are on the site as a measure of how important different topics are how important

45:46 different pages are what you want to be known for and that kind of things so

45:52 when we look at our example of rgsc Library it's all interlinked we have a big Hub page where every single piece is

45:59 linked and then we Link in between the different content and that kind of thing but yeah

46:04 I think one of the biggest things you can do is is to make sure that whenever you write a new piece of content make

46:11 sure it's internally linked on other places of your site straight away because that's going to drive some

46:16 measure of authority to that piece of content straight away before you've even started looking at like external backlinks

46:22 and that kind of thing yeah but it's it's hugely important and and we have a a tool now

46:29 externally to SEO testing that that helps people with internal linking and that kind of thing and there's there's obviously other internal Linkin tools

46:37 whether it's like WordPress plugins and that kind of thing um yeah internal Linkin is is is a big one and it should

46:45 be high on the list of I think every business that has a website personally

46:52 so so how do you see uh I mean uh how do you approach interlinking strategies for

46:57 different for sites with the diverse content types so does it needs to be a

47:03 topical Authority buil or does it needs to be product to categories or product to product how does that you approach

47:08 for different types yeah I think the best the best success you're going to

47:15 have I think is when you internally link on stuff that's you just need to follow

47:22 relevance right so you might have a product page for example of um a house

47:29 mat or something or like a carpet or things like that which you might then choose to link out to one of your guides

47:35 on how to choose the right carpet for your business and that kind of thing or how to choose the right carpet for your

47:40 home even not business but um yeah it's I think when it comes to

47:45 the debate about topical Authority versus like different types of internal linking methods I always try and focus

47:52 on just being good to the user in a sense if we have a user on our blog

47:59 post about keyword clustering and then we mention that you can use keyword

48:05 clustering tools then it's handy to then link out to a blog post that we have on

48:11 what the best keyword clustering tools are and that kind of thing and likewise if we have a broad SEO piece and then we

48:18 mention Google search like a particular Google search console error code or something right and we'll link out to

Internal Linking for Diverse Content

48:25 that particular Google search console error code so I think I think that you're always going

48:31 to have a mix obviously if you're building out content clusters and that kind of thing the big bulk of internal

48:39 links that you have will be interlinked between them but you're always going to have examples of linking out to

48:45 different content types when it's relevant for the user so yeah I think I would place less of an importance

48:52 on making sure you're sticking to one different type of internal linking policy

48:58 and just being good for the user and focusing on the experience that users are going to have on your site and that

49:04 kind of thing okay so does it make sense for for example you spoke about the

49:10 examples for which most of these are blog posts but does it make sense for an e-commerce site to link from a product

49:15 page to a blog post or it's no rules for yeah absolutely it makes sense for it's

49:22 again because because not everyone who lands on a product page for an e-commerce site is going going to be ready to buy and that kind of thing

49:29 especially if it's these sort of higher ticket items you're going to have people at completely different buying stages

49:35 you might have different touch points you might have you might have found for your site for instance that someone

49:41 lands on that same product page eight to 10 times before they buy for cheaper

49:47 products and stuff you might find that obviously they land on a product page once and then they buy but yeah again it's because people

49:55 aren't going to be at the same the same stage as everyone else on the site you need to you need to

50:01 be aware of what the users are going to you need

50:08 to be aware of so yeah yeah linking out to product page or linking out from blog post to product pages vice versa is

50:14 absolutely fine so while we are at e-commerce SEO I

E-Commerce SEO Challenges

50:20 mean let's talk a little bit about e-commerce SEO because you also have experience in e-commerce right yeah yeah

50:26 absolutely right so so what are some of the common challenges of an e-commerce

50:32 issue I think one of the big challenges that people have when it comes to e-commerce sites is because again it's

50:39 it's different the biggest challenges that people are going to have are going to be different compared to for different site types so when it comes to

50:46 e-commerce sites you obviously want to make sure that your site hierarchy is really

50:53 nailed down and the structure of your site is is good and you want to make sure that

50:59 your site be because there's different you're going to have different tiers of content you're going to have um like

51:05 your product pages are going to be maybe a bit lower in the site hierarchy and that kind of thing so you really want to

51:11 make sure and drill down and make sure that search engines can crawl every layer of your

51:16 site and I think that becomes less important in in other content types so

51:22 so yeah it's it really depends where you are but e-commerce sites the biggest challenges they're they're going to have

51:28 are internal linking site structure as a whole then they'll look into different problems with like conversion rates on

51:35 different product types and that kind of thing um yeah their their problems going to be completely different to to the

51:41 problems that we have for instance on like a more content based site right what's the technical SEO issue that you

Overlooked Technical SEO Issues

51:47 find is often overlooked on e-commerce website oh that's tough um yeah cuz yeah

51:56 hierarchy is always is is a big one but it's not necessarily overlooked because people uh people know of the big

52:03 importance but I think people sometimes might not look at

52:08 Google search console as much as they should in terms of they might not look at their indexing report which is a

52:16 massively useful tool whether you're content based or e-commerce based but in my opinion especially if you're e-commerce based because you'll be able

52:23 to look at that report and pick up patterns of pages that aren't being indexed and you might find that there's

52:28 a problem with that you might have orphan pages and that kind of thing and yeah speaking of Orphan pages I think

52:36 that's something that's often overlooked on e-commerce sites because people are more focused on different things but you

52:42 might have yeah Pages you might have product pages for instance that end up being offened if you change your site

52:49 structure at some point along the way and that kind of thing but yeah I think some of the biggest Overlook things

52:55 often come down to like the little things when it comes to site structure

Transitioning to Broader Marketing Roles

53:01 okay uh of course you started at SEO and now you work as a marketing manager so

53:07 my question around that so in your experience transitioning from SEO to broader marketing roads what skills do

53:14 you think are most crucial for se you looking to make a similar yeah so is it might be a bit

53:21 different for for me for instance because I still have a big one of my main focus is still on the SEO side of

53:28 things but if you are if you are looking to transition from purely SEO to a broader role

53:37 whether it's looking at marketing or conversion or that or or that kind of thing anything as a whole I think it's important to utilize

53:45 people in your network that you know who might be more advanced or have other roles for you so when I first took the

53:52 job at SEO testing I had people that I follow on Twitter or LinkedIn who had the same job

54:00 title that I then reached out to for advice um I think it's important to look

54:07 at um different it's important to make sure that you're not Silo in your knowledge

54:14 and that kind of thing so making sure so for example I have a process of whenever I start work I'll use the first 20

54:21 minutes and just read over some new blog posts on sort of authorative blogs that I follow and that kind of

54:27 and when I was an SEO manager at an e-commerce site I was more focused on

54:32 the SEO side of things but now I'll look at blog posts about brand I'll look at blog posts about PPC even though even

54:38 though we don't put a lot of budget at the minute into paid I'll still make sure my knowledge is is up there so if

54:44 our founder Nick does then email me he might email me tomorrow and say Ryan

54:50 when you're back after your holiday we want to put this this amount of budget into PPC can you do it and it's my job

54:56 to then make sure that I'm in I've got enough knowledge to go yeah okay I'm confident I can I can do that

55:03 and I can run that and likewise it's going to be different because for me testing is a small business we have a

55:09 really small team and we have a small marketing team but you might be joining as the marketing manager and you might

55:14 have a team of 30 people under you for instance if you if you're joining a bigger company so leaning on them as

55:20 well you might you might have the role where you're their sort of line manager

55:25 and that kind of but it doesn't mean that you can't go to them for advice on different things um so yeah leaning

55:31 leaning on your network is a big one keeping keeping your knowledge up to up

55:36 to speed on all the different facets of marketing that you're going to have uh a sort of hand in is useful and yeah

55:43 leaning on leaning on different people for for their insights is is a big one too okay so we just rning short of time

SEO for Niche Manufacturing Industries

55:50 I'm just going to ask couple of more questions very quickly so you have worked with Nish manufacturing client as well right I mean you were working so so

55:58 how do you approach SE for a highly specialized yeah so it's that's not

56:04 something I've done for a good while now but I still think there are things that are relevant um in terms of if

56:11 you're if you're looking at a a really Niche site or that it works in an

56:16 industry where search traffic isn't really like massive and you might even

56:22 think that you've hit a silo if if you are working on a manufacturing client that ranks number one for everything you

56:29 might turn around and say okay well my job's done because you might look at that and say we rank number one for

56:34 everything we're fine but there's still things that you can look at and I think a lot of that comes from on page stuff

56:42 so if you think you're at a position where you have a lot of the brand Authority and you can rank number one

56:48 for anything or you can rank top five for anything and that kind of thing then you can start to look at on page stuff

56:54 that will help increase conversion rate and that kind of thing and then expanding out into different things

57:01 also is is going to be useful and yeah for for when we compare like SEO testing

57:07 for instance who will write like broad SEO blog posts so so

57:12 content is a big driver for us but when you're working on more Niche side of things it might not be a big market for

57:18 you to write a load of content and rank that number one and that kind of thing so you might then you might find the

57:24 external link building is is going to be your biggest stroke growth driver and if that's this if that's the thing then

57:30 you're going to want to do that so the sort of headline I think for to answer that question is to find what moves the

57:37 needle the most for your specific industry and your specific Niche and double down on that so for for us and

57:43 our business it's content but that won't be the case for like a manufacturing client for instance they might find that

57:49 building external back links is going to drive the most growth for them and that's the stage where they're going to

57:54 want to jump into okay now Su is a constantly evolving

58:00 field of course so how do you stay up to dat with the latest Trend and updates yeah I read a lot of Industry blog posts

Staying Updated with SEO Trends

58:08 uh there's there's there's a lot of different blogs that I follow um I'll name drop some in like ahfs and semrush

58:14 they have good blogs there's a few different newsletters that I follow ala soless has a good one yeah there's

58:21 there's a few so keeping up to date with blogs and newsletters is always helpful because you can and you can just get the

58:27 headline topics and that kind of thing making sure you have a presence on LinkedIn X or Twitter whatever you want

58:33 to call it now because you can go to different people for advice uh and that kind of thing one thing that we try and

58:39 do internally which I like to give example or I like to give as an example is is

58:44 find find a few different people who do the same sort of thing that you do whether it's whether it's in the same

58:50 Niche or not so like for example if you're an SEO manager for an agency you might want to find SEO managers agencies

58:57 in different countries or people who don't necessarily compete kind of build out like that little internal Network

59:03 and then you can ask them what's working so for me I might have a network of marketing managers at other SAS tools

59:09 and that kind of thing and I might say I might be able to message them and say hey what's working for you at the minute that we could potentially try and that

59:16 kind of stuff so yeah there's uh yeah follow follow blogs make sure you're up to date on on following influential

59:23 people on Twitter and Linkedin and that kind of thing who they'll they'll share they'll share good stuff have your own

59:29 little Network as well and yeah so I think that that kind of question is

59:34 always easy to answer in SEO because for as for as much crap as there's put in

59:41 the SEO world there's also there's a tremendously amount of a tremendous amount of people there who are willing

59:46 to share what they know and help us as well so so making sure you're following them as well it's always good and uh so so uh what has been the

Surprising Changes in SEO Industry

59:55 most surprising change in the Su industry according to you over the last few

1:00:00 years most surprising I don't want to I don't want to get to the stage where I'm answering

1:00:05 a question saying nothing surprises me anymore but no there's there's always something that's uh that's that's

1:00:11 surprising I think I think what did surprise me in the sort of past year is the is the

1:00:19 speed at which AI kind of took over and then the speed at which AI kind of got

1:00:25 removed from the conversation in the sense that when sort of chat GPT became

1:00:31 a proper thing you were seeing like almost every day when I looked on Twitter it seemed as if I was

1:00:38 seeing a new AI writing tool being published or like u a Blog that was like

1:00:45 two days old and it's said look now we have 300 pieces of content and now you

1:00:50 don't have any advice shared about that anymore you don't you don't ever see anyone sharing advice now on oh you can use a I to write your content for you

1:00:57 and whereas now the advice is you can use AI to assist with your writing but you should never use AI to write your

1:01:04 stuff for you so yeah I think the rise and then the fall of AI maybe helped me

1:01:10 not not to say that AI isn't still being talked about and isn't used and isn't useful there's there's obviously still a

1:01:17 massive number of use cases for AI but I think the speed at which it Rose and then the speed at which it fell so

1:01:24 quickly did did surprise me me and uh what's the next big project

Exciting Upcoming Projects

1:01:29 you are working on that excites you the most and how can our listeners stay in touch or updated with you well there's a

1:01:36 few different things that that I'm working on at the minute that always excite me building out our content Hub

1:01:42 on uh ga4 so I'm writing a lot of ga4 based topics at the minute I'm writing a

1:01:48 lot of SEO based content in general and and just sharing what I know which is always exciting for me so yeah anyone

1:01:55 wants to follow me I'm writing a lot on the SEO testing blog so seot testing.com blog where you can find me on LinkedIn

1:02:03 and X as well okay all right Aran it's been a fantastic having you on the agency

1:02:09 inside the show before we wrap up is there any final piece of advice you would like to share with our listeners

Final Advice for Listeners

1:02:14 who are working on or running digital marketing agencies don't ignore testing and whe

1:02:22 whether whether you use SEO testing or not you can do SEO using just Google search console and Google analytics as

1:02:28 well but yeah don't ignore the power that testing has and that's that's not too that's not to advertise us at all is

1:02:36 just when when you're coming up with strategies remember that you're you're able to to implement testing as a

1:02:41 strategy too thank you for joining us today and

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1:02:46 to our listeners don't forget to subscribe to the agency Insider show for more insight from industry leaders until

1:02:53 next time this is n Kos signing off thank thank you