Podcast With Jes Scholz

Entity SEO Secrets: How to Make Your Brand Google's Trusted Friend with Jes Scholz

Show Notes

Discover the secrets to ranking your website #1 and making your brand Google's trusted friend with Jes Scholz in this action-packed episode of The Agency Insider Show! 🚀 Whether you're struggling with indexing, navigating AI-driven platforms, or building a strong brand presence in search engines, we've got you covered.

In this step-by-step guide to SEO strategies, Jes shares how to shift from outdated tactics like backlinks to entity-based optimization, ensuring your brand becomes a standout in Google's Knowledge Graph. Learn how to drive more organic traffic by enriching your content, mastering structured data, and leveraging powerful tools like ChatGPT and AI-driven search engines. Plus, find out how to build EEAT (Experience, Expertise, Authority, and Trustworthiness) authentically to outshine your competitors.

Questions we explore:

• Is your brand a stranger or a trusted friend in Google's Knowledge Graph?
• How can agencies future-proof their SEO strategies in the age of AI?
• What’s the secret to creating topically relevant content that converts?
• Are you optimizing your site for indexing across all search platforms?

Packed with actionable insights, this guide is perfect for marketers, agencies, and business owners looking to achieve a #1 ranking and dominate search engine rankings in 2024. Don’t miss Jes Scholz’s expert advice on how to evolve as a marketer and stay ahead in the ever-changing SEO landscape.

Ready to transform your SEO game? Hit play now and start driving real visibility and better rankings today! 💡

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro: What to Expect in Today's Episode?

01:25 - Jes Outh: How Did Your SEO Journey Begin?

06:41 - Early SEO Principles: What Still Holds True Today?

09:54 - Google Knowledge Graph: Why Does Your Brand Need Entity Status?

12:22 - Building Relationships with LLMs: How to Get Started?

14:22 - Strengthening Brand Signals: What Actionable Steps Can You Take?

16:29 - SEO Costs: Is It Becoming More Expensive?

18:48 - Structuring Entities: How to Connect Them Effectively?

20:44 - Schema Markup: What is the Biggest Misconception?

22:12 - Becoming Google's Friend: What Does It Entail?

23:33 - EEAT Myths: What Are the Common Misunderstandings?

26:10 - Building Real EAT: How Can You Achieve This?

28:45 - In-House Writers: What Role Do They Play in SEO?

30:10 - Organic Sessions: Why Should You Stop Chasing Them?

34:20 - Content Strategy Shift: Why Focus on Value Over Volume?

37:00 - Content Differentiation: How Can You Stand Out?

39:08 - AI in SEO: What Role Does It Play Today?

40:50 - Indexing Mistakes: What Do Agencies Often Get Wrong?

46:14 - Indexing: What Should You Know?

48:25 - Bing Webmaster Tools: How Frequently Should You Use Them?

55:30 - Tracking Prompts: What Are the Best Practices?

58:12 - Staying Ahead: What Must Agencies Do?

01:00:33 - Measuring Traffic from New Surfaces: How Can You Do It?

01:03:12 - High-Converting Traffic: Why Should You Double Down?

01:06:01 - Rapid Fire Round: Quick Insights on SEO!

01:07:04 - Outro: What’s Next for You in SEO?

Transcript

Intro: What to Expect in Today's Episode?

0:00 you have to have your content indexed but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a url indexed because now

0:06 we're talking about its content chunks in a vex database stop chasing organic sessions focus on topically relevant

0:12 brand visibility if your brand is not an entity in the google knowledge graph

0:18 then that would signal that you're lacking in a clear brand footprint you're lacking in notability and i don't

0:24 think a lot of people have really clocked that i think a lot of people still believe that eat is have an author

0:29 bio and link a couple of social pages that are inactive and you're done it's

0:35 it's not enough the systems know that you're just faking it

0:43 [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

0:52 welcome back to the another episode of the agency insider show i'm your host nabit koshal and today we have a truly

0:58 special guest jess o jess is a renowned growth marketing consultant seo futuristic and a keynote speaker with a

1:05 career spanning enterprise consulting global leadership at winger and contributor to search engine journal

1:11 search engine land bose jess is at the forefront of digital marketing innovation and she's known for her

1:17 expertise in entity optimization smart content distribution and datadriven strategies that drive real brand

1:24 visibility jess welcome to the show thanks so much for having me on

Jes Outh: How Did Your SEO Journey Begin?

1:29 uh let's start with your journey and philosophy for those who don't know your background what led you into the world

1:35 of seo and digital transformation i think like most people i fell into it

1:41 by accident so i i studied marketing at university but i thought i would go into

1:47 event management and being an introvert i'm not particularly well suited for

1:52 that role so i couldn't get a job uh in event management and i ended up landing a job as a just a digital marketing

2:00 junior at a company here in sydney and they said "well here's a book on seo

2:06 read it and do what the book says." and that was it i just fell in love and i've been doing seo ever since

2:13 uh okay and this was which year well that would give my age away i'm not

2:19 going to tell you that year yeah all right all right uh now you had an

2:27 incredible journey from hands-on seo to cmo and of course now as an independent consultant what pivotal moments or

2:34 projects have most shaped your approach to marketing and leadership there's been many um but i think it's mainly actually

2:42 been the people rather than the projects to be honest i've really had the pleasure of having some excellent

2:50 managers and excellent leaders who have given that freedom to be able to test

2:56 and learn and fail without fear of my job without fear of repercussion so it's

3:02 that ability to say i don't know if this is going to work or not we're going to

3:07 try it anyway and see what happens that has been consistently the best part

3:14 um when i was working at ringa i had a lot of that that freedom to to test and to learn and often to to fail um and

3:23 that it's not one big project it's lots of little ones building on top of one

3:29 another that gives you such a solid foundation that when something new and and innovative comes along you're not

3:36 afraid of it you're excited by it and you're looking forward to seeing okay how do i play with this new thing how do

3:41 i use this to my advantage and i think it's more important with ai

3:47 and ai overviews and ai i mean it's something i myself personally feel very

3:52 excited about but i see a lot of seos getting very apprehensive about it they think seo is going to shut down but i

3:57 see it's a new frontier where nobody been before so it's very hard to predict sitting now what's going to happen one

4:03 year later i showing a little bit of my age i was around when we had uh we were calling it

4:10 social 2.0 cuz it was new so this was like the birth of facebook cuz i was

4:16 working before facebook was a thing and it came along and everyone's like "oh everything's nothing's going to be the

4:23 same as it ever was." and then there's still these core foundational principles that that don't change and as long as

4:30 you understand what those principles are and you're solid on that then it's just playing with the the new experiences and

4:38 learning these new touch points in order to reach your user so not to underplay

4:43 that seo with ai now in the game is not a a shift it it certainly is but it's

4:50 not that the industry is dead and we all need to

4:55 go and find another job like our job has always been to connect our brands to our

5:01 users through search and discovering because i've always seen platforms like google discover as part of an seo's role

5:09 um so it's it's just a new way of making those connections right and and i think because people

5:16 think it's just the end but it's it's just a shift of course a major shift but something which is exciting for as i

5:23 said for me as well right now uh you have uh um managed marketing across 200

5:31 plus brands in diverse marketeers how has working at this scale influenced your perspective on what really matters

5:37 in seo and brand building that's the page any individual page

5:46 doesn't matter so whenever i'm working at at enterprise level you're really

5:52 looking at this template of page how does my category page as a template

5:58 behave how does my article page or my product page behave as a template and what can i do at scale which not only

6:06 optimizes the content you're producing now but all of the content you've produced in the past and all of the

6:12 content you will produce in the future um so it's it's with the exception of

6:17 the homepage that's the one page actually i do look at as an individual thing but it is both a page and the

6:23 template in and of itself the only one in that category so with the exception of that homepage i'm really looking more

6:30 into um the scalability of the change

Early SEO Principles: What Still Holds True Today?

6:42 early days in seo and i'm of course not talking the years but uh that still

6:48 holds true even as the landscape gets more complex

6:53 no matter what you have to be in the index so it doesn't matter now that that

6:59 index is changing it's not a traditional web index we're looking now at it's a data corpus that the ai is pulling on

7:06 you you're talking about a vector database but it's still an index right um so as long as you have this

7:12 understanding if my content is not indexed i cannot compete so my step one

7:19 of any optimization from the very birth of seo up to now even with everything

7:25 going on in ai this fundamental principle doesn't change you have to

7:31 have your content indexed but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a url indexed because now we're

7:37 talking about it's content chunks in a vector database it's not urls into a web index but be index worthy

7:46 never changes never will change right because i don't think even with the ai

7:52 anything coming is uh real time so it's all at the end of the day as you said it's a matter of data set and data set

7:58 needs indexing so because i see most of the people think ai is different but at

8:03 the end of the day it's exactly fetching data from a data set which exactly search engines like google also do so

8:09 it's in terms it's just the interface but the back end still exist and which is the data set right yeah and that data

8:16 set those data sets are now expanding like for the last 10 years we've only cared about one we've cared about the

8:21 google web index and now we have to think about okay it's also the bing web index and it's how we actually um import

8:29 these this this content from our database into these platforms but

8:34 there's still this necessity of indexing because it's not that a google gemini or

8:39 a chbt when you say answer this prompt they're not in real time going out and

8:47 crawling the internet and finding pages and putting that in a database they have

8:52 a pre-existing corpus that they are pulling on for in my understanding like

8:57 99% of queries yes right because otherwise because when

9:04 it's answering with so much speed obviously it's coming from a data set unless it goes say okay i'm doing a

9:10 research which i still believe is not all the time real time but that's how it

9:15 is yeah it's also about safety and security if you were doing it real time

9:20 or real search you could get it to do some questionable

9:26 researching with questionable outputs and that's too much of a risk for these platforms so you need these security

9:32 measures and and quality measures and the best way to do that is have a corpus

9:38 that you trust and this is why you know chatgpt i believe openai partnered with

9:43 microsoft because they have a relatively trustworthy corpus that they could pull

9:49 on now when we talked about you said it's it's the content it's just not your

Google Knowledge Graph: Why Does Your Brand Need Entity Status?

9:56 website content needs to be indexed so uh on that uh let's talk a little bit i

10:02 think what it calls is as a brand uh entity seo which you also mentioned sometime before as well now uh you have

10:10 been vocal about the shift from optimizing for keywords and urls to optimizing for entities and brand

10:16 visibilities so can you break down what does what does this means for agencies and brands in 2025 and further

10:26 so the the key is to make sure that your brand is a known entity in the knowledge

10:31 graph now obviously we talk a lot about the google knowledge graph it's still the primary one it powers the vast

10:37 majority of search bing also has its own knowledge graph these other smaller indexing platforms are developing their

10:43 own um but they're not something that's you can't access it through an api you

10:48 can access the google knowledge graph and query that through an api so it's the most accessible is generally going

10:54 to be the one that we optimize more for um if your brand is not an entity in the

11:00 google knowledge graph then that would signal that you're lacking in a clear

11:06 brand footprint you're lacking in notability and if you're lacking with notability within your industry for

11:14 these knowledge graphs you're probably also lacking in some level of notability

11:19 for your audience as well because even if you have an exceptional offline

11:25 presence you might not have translated that into an online brand with enough

11:31 focus to clearly communicate to that digital audience this is who i am this

11:38 is my category that i operate in and this is why you should choose me over

11:43 another and that becomes particularly important when you have these ai systems

11:50 becoming a gatekeeper to visibility because even if your enduser audience

11:56 knows you because you have you know tv ads and you do lots of stores offline and you have really good physical

12:04 presence if that hasn't been translated into something that these ai gatekeepers or algorithmic gatekeepers understand

12:12 then you might not be earning all of the visibility that you should be in the digital world right right now uh so so

12:21 how can a brand start building this relationship with uh with these llms so

Building Relationships with LLMs: How to Get Started?

12:27 is it just about getting their uh content listed on different websites or is there a is there a method to it uh

12:34 there's definitely a method to it uh because it's not just any website it has to be a website that is relevant to your

12:42 your industry your category so it's about understanding that okay as a brand

12:48 i should have an entry point into places for my industry that are relevant

12:56 to build up my digital brand authority so that's definitely going to be a

13:01 google maps entry um if you're big enough you have a physical office you have a store you have a headquarters

13:08 that should be in google maps and recognize um you're going to want to be in relevant industry directories whether

13:14 that's something like crunchbased for example um you might be a startup you want to be in the startup ones if you're

13:19 a restaurant you want to be in yelp if you're um an employer you want to be in

13:26 you know a a big jobs classified platforms directory of good employers for

13:32 it's about understanding those relevant places and then it's to unify

13:38 who the brand is and what it is so if sometimes you're describing yourself one way and other times you're describing

13:45 yourself a different way these large language models are going to look at it and say well there's not statistical

13:51 significance here it doesn't agree are these two different things are they the same thing i'm confused if i'm confused

13:58 with your entity and i'm not confused with a competitor's entity well then

14:03 there's statistically more trust in your competitor um and that's going to be influencing that that training data set

14:10 um so it's something where you just need to be very conscious that you're presenting a a unified brand front in

14:17 how you describe yourself and how you visually present yourself okay so uh one of your recent article on

Strengthening Brand Signals: What Actionable Steps Can You Take?

14:25 mo uh dives deep into the brand entity seo which you mentioned so are there other actionable steps that agencies can

14:32 take today to strengthen their brand and entity signals

14:39 that consistency both in your the way it looks visually and the way that it's written is the

14:46 most important um outside of that it's really being able to go and understand

14:53 how these models understand you and the easiest way of doing this is to get three or four or five different versions

14:59 of prompts so your brand name what is your brand name um what's the best um

15:04 brands in your category and and prompt those in chatbt prompt those in gemini

15:11 um prompt those in ai mode which is going to give you a slightly different answer and see what's spat out and

15:16 understood about the brand and see if that aligns with how you want your brand or your client's brand to be positioned

15:24 and if it doesn't say what you want it to say look at the sources that it's citing and those are the sources then

15:30 you need to go and see if you can update correct change that understanding a lot

15:36 of the time it's going to be sources you control like your own website or a social media profile or a crunch profile

15:43 um sometimes it will be old media articles you you're not going to be able to write to that journalist and say "can

15:48 you update that article from 2018 please?" but what you can do is say "okay this is obviously something that

15:54 the the model sees in this instance to be important can i go and get a new article published?" of course they do

16:00 like freshness and have it replaced um and when you get really good at that what you can then do is do the same

16:06 process for your competitors and see where they're sort cited and see what's talked about with them and say "okay

16:12 that media article talked about them in 2019 now let's have them talk about me

16:17 now." and you replace your competitor's citations and that's how you can kind of

16:22 um use them to your brand or your client's brand's advantage

16:28 right so so one thing i see with all these uh uh mentions and brand identity

SEO Costs: Is It Becoming More Expensive?

16:34 features the seo is set to get expensive i mean because it's no longer just

16:39 building backlinks it's more about getting featured on the reliable sources and they're not going to come cheap

16:48 ye yes and no i would argue that i'm not a big fan of backlinks i mean that's very clear if you follow me i'm rather

16:56 i'm anti-back links in terms of what that implies and conotes i've always

17:02 been a fan of strong digital pr and brand building and mentions and yes

17:07 sometimes this will result in links and good uh so it's not anti-links it's

17:13 anti-back links um i don't think it's necessarily going to

17:18 get more expensive if you were doing it right because then you always doing a

17:24 certain version of digital pr um that requires more effort and more thought

17:31 and to actually be adding value to the conversation if you were getting a link

17:36 and that link wasn't valuable and that link wasn't passing traffic and that link wasn't seen by your target audience

17:43 and they've gone "oh actually i want to go and check out that brand i'll add it to my mental list of brands that i like

17:49 in this category." it wasn't doing you any value anyway so it was a little bit

17:54 of a a waste of money i would argue you might have got a short traffic boost in

18:00 the in the next few weeks after you built a 100 links and then it would settle down and you had to then go and

18:07 build more and you became a little bit of a link addict well welcome to your detox it's going to be a little bit

18:13 painful if you were doing that but this is the future it's not so easy to gain

18:20 these systems it's even hard to understand how these systems function nowadays and so we have to come back to

18:27 these roots of marketing and it's about brand salience and it's about getting in

18:32 front of those potential customers and how you do that in a valuable meaningful

18:38 way i actually like this return to roots i think it's going to make us better

18:44 marketers better industry okay now uh for brands with multiple

Structuring Entities: How to Connect Them Effectively?

18:50 products personalities or subbrands how do you recommend structuring and

18:55 connecting these entities for maximum impact in the llms and knowledge graphs

19:01 so the the first way is make sure that those relationships are clear in the way that you've put the structured data onto

19:08 the page so jono alderson's always been a proponent of graph-based schema that

19:14 connects the different uh schema elements together and shows the relationship

19:19 between those two entities on the page and and this is something i agree with him 100% um i i think it's definitely

19:27 worthwhile having that technical representation of the relationships

19:32 between the products of the parent brand of the products um to to make that

19:38 clearer for whichever system is trying to interpret it um beyond that kind of

19:44 foundational setup then it's making sure you understand each of those products do

19:50 you see it as just a pdp it has a page is it something you're going to sell or are you trying to make it into its own

19:57 brand so if you think of you know something like amazon amazon has a lot of products they're not trying to make

20:03 those products into brands they're just trying to sell them they're the commodities under the brand amazon well

20:09 if you think about a brand like um meta and they have the meta ray-b band

20:14 glasses well those meta ray-b band glasses they're a brand in themselves oculus is a brand in itself that has a

20:21 relationship to the parent entity of meta but is a standalone similar with facebook or or or whatsapp right they're

20:27 standalone brands and then you have to invest the resources to make those

20:34 brands entities in the knowledge graph themselves and give themselves a a profile and and proper marketing behind

20:42 it now uh uh what's the biggest m

Schema Markup: What is the Biggest Misconception?

20:47 misconception companies have about schema markup and knowledge graph i think the biggest misconception

20:55 is that you follow exactly what google says in the guidelines

21:01 and that's best practice i would not say that google's guidelines

21:07 are by any means best practice they do not acknowledge a lot of the attributes

21:12 that are available in schema.org they don't acknowledge this um using ids to

21:19 build a graph of your structured data and their examples are very self-s serving their examples are here is the

21:28 structured data that we utilize to do rich snippets which is some of the value

21:35 of structured data but it is one part of a larger whole of explaining the

21:42 relationships between the things that you have on your website um and that's

21:48 not reflected in in google's documentation at all so it's a good starting point to understand google's

21:54 perspective but it's definitely just the starting point you also need to read the

21:59 proper structured data um implementations from schema.org and you

22:04 need to understand how thought leaders in this industry are recommending you connect those entities together okay you

Becoming Google's Friend: What Does It Entail?

22:12 also mentioned sometime being uh becoming google's friend so uh so can

22:18 you walk us through how a brand can audit whether it's a stranger familiar face or a friend to google

22:26 uh so the first place to start is are you in a knowledge graph so if you're not in the knowledge graph you're a

22:32 stranger right if you're in the knowledge graph but it just knows you by name it has no additional attributes

22:39 associated with you as a brand entity then you're that familiar face like "oh yeah i think his name's john

22:46 um and friend is someone in the knowledge graph who's really deeply

22:52 known it's got all of the attributes it knows what your job title is it knows a

22:57 picture of you it it has um your social media profiles associated your wikipedia

23:02 page associated it's really really fleshed out and particularly the related

23:07 entities it's getting those um right by its definition of of categorization um

23:13 which sometimes might mean it's recommending your competitors on your page which is obviously suboptimal from

23:20 your perspective um but it is optimal if you're being recommended on your competitor's pages so it's uh depends

23:27 how you see that double-edged sword okay now uh let's talk about a little

EEAT Myths: What Are the Common Misunderstandings?

23:35 bit about the author eat which of course uh uh one of your recent piece on the

23:41 myths of manufacturing author eat is one of the most honest i've read in a while

23:47 so what triggered you to write it the trigger was i've worked in the media

23:53 space for quite some time and there was a lot of these articles around which were saying all you need to have eat is

24:02 an author bio put that on the article page and and job done now you have eat

24:07 and my brain said no like it's never nothing in the google verse is that

24:13 simple and so i i'm luckily enough that one of my clients allowed me to test

24:19 this at scale and so we said "okay um here's uh a whole bunch of journalists i

24:24 would like you to make sure you have a fully fleshed out bio."

24:30 just getting that was very difficult a lot of journalists said "no we're not

24:35 going to do that." you can't it's it's not ethical for a company in my view to force a journalist

24:42 to have a fully fleshed bio on their page it has to be something in my view that the journalist should want to do because they understand that that's part

24:49 of their personal branding that's them building up their own entity their value as a as a commodity as a writer the same

24:55 way we do a resume right it is their resume um but some choose not to and

25:00 that is their choice so straight away i couldn't get a a large portion of them to do it even after explaining the

25:06 benefits from the the personal brand building perspective uh the ones who did do it we didn't see a notable change in

25:14 the traffic to their articles in their brand presence in their presence in the knowledge graph none of the metrics

25:19 moved and so it was very clear to me that it's it's beyond just this one

25:25 simple thing we we think about notable entities i don't become a notable entity

25:30 by having a single page on a single website that says i'm i'm an author um

25:38 so if you want to build real eat it's about becoming authentically

25:46 an expert in your industry and i don't think a lot of people have really clocked that i think a lot of people

25:52 still believe that eat is have an author bio and link a couple of social pages

25:58 that are inactive and you're done it's it's not enough the systems know that

26:05 you're just faking it you're not making it right right now you uh you of course

Building Real EAT: How Can You Achieve This?

26:12 mentioned that most brands can't build author e8 at scale so what can they

26:18 realistically do so realistically i think the most important thing for a brand is hiring

26:24 right hiring these people who actually have a passion for what they do and we

26:31 have a lot of these people in the seo industry that yes they work for brands but they also come on podcasts they also

26:39 write articles they also speak and share knowledge at conferences they they post on social media like we we legitimately

26:46 and authentically want to be industry experts and share

26:52 that knowledge and that's something you have these people in every single industry there are people who are

26:59 passionate about every single topic in the world you need to find those

27:04 passionate people and either hire them in house or have them kind of on your

27:11 payroll somehow or bring them in as a as an external author but have people with

27:17 passion because if they have passion behind what they're doing they're going to have natural experience and expertise

27:25 and authority and they're going to be trustworthy you know why because they know what they're talking about and so

27:31 it's kind of this paytoplay either you're paying a really good salary and being able to maintain this

27:37 high quality talent within your team or you're you're offering really good

27:42 outsourcing opportunities and bringing in those influential passionate people

27:48 to be linked to your brand um whether that is through like influencer

27:56 relationships legitimate not this social media fluff that's been going on the last five years um whether that's having

28:03 them um do again legitimate guest posting i think a lot of our industry

28:08 takes a concept that works and then try to scale it too much and hype it too

28:13 much to the point where it doesn't work anymore and then everyone's like "oh guest posting that doesn't work." yeah guest posting doesn't work if you're

28:20 trying to use it to manipulate seo um but if you've got someone who is a

28:25 legitimate expert and you're bringing them into your brand and having a

28:30 meaningful conversation of course that works that's how it's worked for decades it doesn't matter what the algorithms

28:37 say it's they're going to bring their audience their passion along with them

28:42 and that is a value now uh where do you see the role of

In-House Writers: What Role Do They Play in SEO?

28:48 in-house writers evolving uh with the rise ofmeled content

28:54 with the rise of the theme le content the uhme le content

29:02 for smallmedium enterprises i think it's really about knowing where

29:09 to go and find that talent and having the budget set aside for it so it comes

29:14 back to real um like digital pr and digital communications

29:20 you are going to need to have some money set aside or some other attractive

29:26 reason it's not always a financial reason for these influential people in

29:32 your industry to come and interact with your your business and there's there's

29:38 many opportunities where you can add a lot of value to your brand and you can add a lot of value to your community if

29:45 you think about this smartly um there's a lot of brands out there who are

29:52 are thinking how can i authentically help with challenges that my community

29:58 is facing on topics that my target audience cares about and that's

30:04 something where you can bring these influencers in because they have that passion for it as well right okay now uh

Organic Sessions: Why Should You Stop Chasing Them?

30:12 let's talk about uh product enrichment and content strategy overall uh which you mentioned as well

30:19 so in a recent linkedin post you said stop chasing organic sessions focus on topically relevant brand visibilities so

30:27 can you elaborate on how this changes day-to-day content strategy for agencies

30:33 yeah so i think when you're an agency and you have a new client come in say it's uh you've got a new e-commerce

30:39 client and that e-commerce client wants whatever e-commerce client wants they

30:45 want more revenue more conversions if you're going to be chasing traffic

30:53 you're up against some of the biggest players in the industry and now you're up against an ai mode you're up against

31:01 an industry that doesn't want to pass traffic anymore until the point of

31:08 conversion because aio mode like it actually with the exception of

31:13 e-commerce they do actually want to do the conversion with with google nowadays so let's take that worst case scenario

31:19 actually you want to be the one that the ai mode chooses to convert with

31:27 so you've got amazon up there you've got another big aggregator and you've got your client how are you going to make

31:33 sure that that human or that agent chooses you it's you're going to

31:42 have the best fit for that user's query because what we're not going to be doing anymore is going to google search and

31:49 typing in okay i want a black dress like that that head match term that is gone

31:56 why would i type that and then have to go through all of the hassle of clicking

32:02 to multiple websites and then half the dresses aren't even black or they're not in my size and i find one that is in my

32:07 size that is black but then it doesn't ship for 30 days because it's out of stock it's such a frustrating process

32:15 well i can go to chatbt and now they've got the product integration feature that

32:21 soon will be able to feed products in directly and i just say "hey i want a uh

32:26 size whatever uh little black dress i'm going to be wearing this to a conference

32:32 that i've got coming up um so i want it to be you know nice knee length and i want it to be in fashion and this is my

32:40 price range." like i'm really giving a lot of information right now when we think about that product on amazon

32:46 probably it's not going to be that fleshed out amazon doesn't have a lot of attributes they've already got the

32:53 customer they've got decent enough photos they're leveraging that scale of

32:58 the brand to get those conversions what you need to do is you need to come

33:04 in with the more detailed attributes you need to be the one that has not just the

33:10 price and the color because everybody has that you need to have that material you need to be saying if it's eco-friendly you need to be um getting

33:18 really specific on the cut on the collar on all of these details that people

33:23 might be looking for as either an explicit part of their query or that

33:29 this fan out technique that we now see in ai mode is added as an implicit part

33:35 of the query and then it's coming back to this idea of indexing and corpuses

33:40 because all of this information is fed into the corpus in the vector database and you've got the queries cuz there's

33:46 multiple now fed into that same database and and you say okay well what's the

33:52 match and if your product has all of these attributes fully fleshed out you

33:57 are the closest vector match and so you're going to be chosen so you're

34:03 going to be shown and this is what it means by product enrichment it's about making sure that your clients understand

34:10 it's about the depth of information that is provided on the product page not does

34:17 the product page exist all right now uh uh we are seeing

Content Strategy Shift: Why Focus on Value Over Volume?

34:24 content strategy shift from volume to value so what changes are you

34:30 implementing across the brands you oversee

34:35 a lot of a lot of enrichment it's a lot of making sure that it has all of those

34:42 attributes that my users could be looking for which are not only assists with search it also assists with

34:47 conversion on page but it comes with a challenge because when you're trying to add a lot more information to a page and

34:55 that page is on mobile you run out of space very quickly and you don't want to

35:01 overload the user so it really comes back into at least for the time while

35:07 it's a human looking at the page really comes back into the user experience of the page itself um and and really

35:14 understanding the principles of design and how to integrate content in a way

35:21 that these bots will be able to read because a lot of people say "okay i'm going to default and i'm going to use

35:27 tabs i'm going to use accordians or i'm going to hide it somehow." um and then you have all of the issues of are you

35:34 using javascript for that well then it can't be read so we need to make sure that that's all available on the server

35:39 side but then your page gets really heavy and now we have page load speed issues and so it's a lot of all of these

35:47 things we've been told for years to do render on server side have a fast loading page have really good like

35:53 reduce the number of ads if they're taking up too much um of of the weight reduce the number of useless tracking

35:59 scripts and external calls all of that work if you've been doing the work now you'll be seeing the payoff because you

36:06 can add that additional information that additional context those videos those

36:12 images that multimodality that is now being asked and you're not going to have the page so heavy that it

36:19 it's too much effort to load um but if you haven't been putting in all of that work that's going to be a challenge

36:26 maybe that's a lot of the reason why clients will be coming to agencies um for support on these hard to achieve

36:35 tasks and that comes back to if the agencies have hired in the right talent

36:40 and you have those people who really know how to ensure that the page can load fastly efficiently with great ux

36:49 and a really way that's that's crawable and indexable in chunks

36:54 then you add a lot of value for those clients now

Content Differentiation: How Can You Stand Out?

37:00 in the age of ai and automation what does content differentiations looks for

37:05 me this is a challenging one uh i i work with some some publishers and obviously the publishing industry is being hit the

37:12 hardest when it comes to to content at this point in time and it's a challenge

37:17 because if you differentiate too much you don't have the uh statistical

37:23 significance you're you're you don't have the close enough entity correlations

37:28 um and cosign similarity to always been chosen to be a citation on these new surfaces which don't cost you the

37:34 visibility so it's really about understanding

37:40 what entities must be in there what do you have to talk about to be seen as

37:46 relevant but not have the exact same information

37:51 as everybody else because you still need to provide somehow additional value

37:58 whether that is your own opinion on what's happened whether that is an expert quote that other people don't

38:04 have whether that is a fresh take on it maybe you uh go against the the the

38:09 common best practice you disagree with it you have evidence to support that or you can

38:16 take something to a different level of depth because you have the expertise it's about understanding what value you

38:23 can bring to the conversation while still being on topic and that's very

38:29 hard for a lot of brands who have just hired an intern to write a blog and they

38:36 look at the top 10 search results and rephrase what's there or have an ai doing that exact same process because

38:42 that's not really adding a point of view it's not adding value it's not differentiating and and why would you be

38:51 chosen why would people read you because an ai

38:56 can do that synthesis what can you add that the ai doesn't have that's what's

39:03 going to get you cited but it still needs to be relevant okay and uh let's talk about ai role in

AI in SEO: What Role Does It Play Today?

39:11 modern seo and of course indexing now you have mentioned that ai doesn't remove the need for strategy it

39:18 amplifies it so where do you see ai being most helpful for agencies

39:26 from an seo perspective i think ai has got a really really good role when it comes to automating these tasks that a

39:33 human didn't need to be doing anyway um i use a lot of ai to to help me

39:39 understand very quickly when i get a new client what is the industry what are the

39:44 topics where are they positioned um kind of understanding that that corpus of

39:49 existing knowledge both on their site on their competitor's sites and and where

39:55 we can add to those conversations in meaningful ways um i think using these

40:01 tools and this is not so much the ai itself it's just made it more accessible

40:06 i'm using these tools to automate your reporting um or to summarize complex data into something that's easy to

40:13 understand and explain um it's this enhancement of processes we were just

40:21 investing too much time in um where i don't use ai is is you know writing

40:29 content um that i expect to have a big pickup by um like the sort of gemini or

40:38 a chat gpt or ai mode um that for me is not a good use case um but doing these

40:44 this analysis or helping with mundane processes 100% great for agencies to do

Indexing Mistakes: What Do Agencies Often Get Wrong?

40:52 okay now indexing and crawling have become uh more challenging especially

40:57 with the rise of llms and ai search engines now what are the biggest mistake agencies make with indexing and how can

41:04 they fix them of course once you mentioned not having a serverside indexing

41:09 yes i think one mistake is people forget the value of the fundamentals a lot of the

41:18 time when when you will go in to a client and say "okay we need to optimize your site maps." you'll get the response

41:24 why will it help with traffic and the answer is no it's not going to significantly help with with traffic

41:30 right now you're not going to deploy site maps and a week later you're going to have 10% more organic sessions that's

41:35 never going to happen but by having really solid site maps you're giving

41:41 yourself two benefits the first of those benefits is that you're making that site

41:47 crawable more crawable and indexable not only to googlebot who's very good at it

41:53 bingbot who's also pretty good at it but if we have to think what's coming into

41:59 these markets now you've got chat gbt has its own crawler you have perplexity is setting up its own index you've got

42:06 claude's also there thinking about okay how do i get into this uh you've got meta ai starting to crawl the internet

42:12 you've got grock out there crawling right it's not just about google bots so

42:18 you having fundamentals like solid site maps helps these smaller baby crawlers

42:26 get to your content as well it's a good signpost for these young bots

42:31 the second reason to do it is that if you have extremely well ststructured site maps you can very easily show data

42:40 to your clients about what sections of their site are working well and what sections of their site need more

42:47 assistance when it comes to indexing so for example if you have a site which has

42:53 both products articles and categories if you have all of those in one site map

42:59 you can't really understand from the sample in google search console which is only a thousand which is a joke like

43:05 which ones are being indexed well you can see overall indexing of your site but that's not particularly useful if

43:11 you have a specific sitemap index for your articles a separate one for your products and a separate one for your

43:17 categories now in google search console or in bing web master tools you can

43:22 break down that indexing and you can see okay my articles are indexed at 90% my

43:29 products only at 30% so i don't need to invest more effort into my article pages

43:35 in terms of of technical setup but i certainly need to invest more into the

43:40 technical setup of my product pages and you can go really granular with this like categories you could have your

43:46 category sitemap index and then break it down by specific categories so you can have here all of my combinations of my

43:54 um car category my jobs category my property category my electronics category and then you can see okay

44:02 categories overall have 70% indexing um cars is at 60% and electronics is at 20%

44:09 oh my god my electronic category clearly needs more visibility signals so i'm

44:14 going to change my internal linking i'm going to bring that up a little bit more i'm going to get um more uh topical

44:20 content published around that it really helps you see where as a website you're struggling that is for me the main value

44:30 of a sitemap a really good sitemap strategy and this is something that's so overlooked because it's not going to

44:37 drive you traffic right now so so so correct me if i'm wrong so is

44:44 it advisable if you have a large website to break site map into particular category wise or section wise or uh for

44:52 example article or one let's say if i have less than 10,000 pages would you still recommend the same approach of

44:59 having multiple site maps so that you can monitor the indexing and crawlability

45:04 i would say if you go into google search console and you look at your overall indexing if the vast majority of it is

45:12 green then you don't need to go like you've you've got good indexing you you won't get anything out of analyzing it

45:18 deeper apart from to understand everywhere you have good indexing but if you're like the vast majority of

45:24 websites that i've ever seen when i first start working on them and you have

45:29 80% gray and 20% green you need to know

45:34 what are you missing out on and the best way to do that is by finding a smart way

45:41 of dividing up those site maps now you could do it by page type you can do it by section you can do it by topic and

45:48 how you want to do it doesn't really matter it's going to be what makes sense for that website and their goals but by

45:57 breaking it down you can understand where am i doing well on indexing

46:03 and where am i not and that helps you drive the rest of your strategy because all roads lead back to indexing right

46:13 so is there a is there a different so we we mentioned sitemap for uh indexing so is there a different methodology when it

Indexing: What Should You Know?

46:21 comes to llms or it's the same thing works for the llms as well because of course there is no way we can know they

46:26 are indexing or not but what we are feeding we can actually ensure that it is being fed up fed in right so is there

46:34 a different way or method for that so we have confirmed john mueller was uh

46:40 talking to i forget who asked the question so my apologies if you're the person who asked the question but

46:45 someone on linkedin asked john mueller like if we can see in google search

46:50 console that a page is indexed does this mean that it has the chance to get into ai mode and if it's not indexed does it

46:56 not get into ai mode and his uh very politically correct answer was you know it's not 100% of cases but most of the

47:04 time yes like if you're not in the google index you're not going to be able to be surfaced in ai mode was the the

47:10 general takeaway so knowing that that's controlling the

47:15 vast majority of visibility and knowing that chat gpt pulls on the bing index

47:21 and it's highly likely that it is a similar situation if it's not either in

47:26 the bing index or their own curated index that they're starting to build

47:32 you're not going to be able to get that visibility um so using google search console and bing web master tools for an

47:38 understanding of how am i doing with indexing overall and then understanding

47:44 that these smaller indexes probably struggle a little bit more than the big

47:49 players they don't have the 20 years of perfecting crawling and indexing so if

47:54 you're struggling in the big players you're definitely going to be struggling in the small ones if you're doing really

48:00 well in the big players you're probably going to be better positioned for the smaller ones and if you're doing really

48:06 well in google and terrible in big well then you know you've overoptimized for

48:12 one system and you need to start thinking about there's many other players out there in these ecosystems

48:19 that i need to be taking into account as it it moves away from a purely google world

Bing Webmaster Tools: How Frequently Should You Use Them?

48:26 okay so so when it comes to indexing is there a way we can is there a methodology

48:32 which you tried we can find out what kind of a pages of my website are indexed in a particular llm or it's

48:40 still in a very nent stage hard to find yes i would say nent stage so you you

48:47 can uh you could go and you could prompt it and you can get urls and then you can

48:53 go and crawl those urls and see that it processes the status code correctly but the effort to do all of that and and

49:02 weed out the hallucinations cuz there are hallucinations um

49:07 i don't think it would be worth the the value of the data that you get back okay

49:12 um when it comes to indexing at this point in time until we have

49:18 um a trustworthy system from these other indexing platforms i'm really looking to

49:26 google search console and bing web master tools for a feel of the ecosystem

49:32 um yeah so after these lms how how much how how many how much more often have

49:40 you started using big map master tool because we as an seo have been ignoring

49:45 it ah doesn't matter so has that uh thought process of your changed and have

49:51 you seen any benefits and when it comes to llm specifically uh the chart gpt with bing yeah so i i definitely i would

50:00 say about a year and a half ago i hadn't logged into big web master tools for years um and and then i logged into it

50:07 for the first time i had to learn it i hadn't been in there for so long i actually had to go and and figure out where everything was right um i am now

50:15 logging into bing web master tools weekly i'm i'm in there at least once or

50:20 twice a week um i think when it comes to the the

50:25 indexing side of things it's it's very hard to say optimizing in the being

50:31 index led to this outcome because chat gpt traffic is naturally going up month

50:38 over months for the vast majority of brands so if i do nothing i'm going to get more traffic because they're getting

50:45 more traction in the industry and so it's you have to do a comparison of my

50:53 percentage change um from this month to last month and is that percentage higher than it was

50:59 before but even that is so dependent on the macroeconomic environment because when for example czech gpt released

51:05 their uh image generation functionality my traffic shot up nothing to do with what i did everything to do with they

51:12 earned significantly more users who then started using the platforms for things that weren't image generation um so it's

51:19 it's it's very hard to measure and and then you come down to these kind of um

51:25 like llm prompt trackers i don't know the the common name we're settling on

51:31 for them yet essentially the llm version of rank tracking um

51:36 i think that's very hard to to trust at scale um i do use them don't

51:44 get me wrong if if i'm enriching product content i want to understand that that

51:49 product enrichment have an impact i'm going to have a thousand prompts of all different variants for that type of

51:55 thing that i've just optimized and i am measuring okay did i get more traction

52:00 in gbt and in ai overviews and in gemini etc etc um but i don't think that they

52:08 are something that you can trust as reflective of everything that's going on

52:16 um i see them as the digital equivalent of a focus group it gives you a feel and

52:22 a good feel and good information you wouldn't have otherwise is that focus group going to be 100% representative of

52:29 the wider population definitely not um so i i see these prompt trackers as

52:35 as digital focus groups great for getting a feel for how well you're doing

52:41 but you don't know if it's going to scale out that same way because because it's also important to remember that

52:47 most of the time if you're logged into chat gbt it eventually is getting you personalized results so that's not

52:54 something which you can track with an llm prompt i might rank for particular keyword in a personalized result but i

53:01 might not rank with the llm tools so i think that's where this tool will always lack exactly and then there's the

53:07 argument so a tool like profound for example you can put in your customer

53:13 persona uh but then it comes back to this fallacy of marketing that you have

53:20 a perfect customer and i think this is very dangerous for for the seo community

53:25 because we like to latch on to things that are safe and secure and and saying "okay here is my customer profile." that

53:34 makes us feel so much more safe and okay now i can track my customer profile the challenge is that's not how humans

53:40 behave in the real world like even when we think of a category like luxury goods you would logically think people who

53:47 have higher incomes would buy more luxury goods but then if you look at the real data this is not my research this

53:55 is um research by the urgenberg bass institute right um when they've looked

54:00 at the data they say actually everybody to an extent has a chance to

54:06 buy luxury goods if they're interested in that category you know my my husband

54:12 might buy a luxury handbag for me for a very special birthday is he the ideal customer profile that's

54:19 going to be put into profound no no way everybody likes to splurge every now and

54:25 then and equally everybody goes cheap every now and then just because you can afford the luxury handbag doesn't mean

54:31 that you're not shopping on teu every now and then so what is your ideal customer profile it's everybody who has

54:38 in the past is currently looking or may in the future look in your category how are you going to put that into profound

54:44 because you don't know who that is you don't know who those category buyers are going to be and so again i fear that

54:50 we're going to lull ourselves into this false sense of security saying for my

54:57 ideal customer profile on these exact prompts i get 100% visibility you're

55:03 like "okay but does that translate that focus group that you've hand selected to show your

55:09 ceo or your cmo what you want to show in terms of how good you are at seo how does that translate to real world?" and

55:16 so if you're having 100% perfect tracking in your llm tracker but in the

55:22 real world you're losing market share that data is not helping you

55:27 now when it comes to tracking you have shared practical workflows for monitoring ai overviews and tracking

Tracking Prompts: What Are the Best Practices?

55:33 performances in g4 so is there a way for people can i know there are things where

55:39 you can use uh google locker studio and combine it with this so is there a

55:45 different methodology you recommend because i as far as i understand the only way i can track is traffic coming

55:51 from the llms i cannot track the prompts which is i don't think is ever going to come so is there a different methodology

55:57 you recommend or is there uh another way so uh to tracking the prompts you could

56:04 look into the clickstream data um it's not going to be perfect it's got but you

56:10 could get a feel for it so technically that might be that might be possible um

56:16 for some of them and they may be the synthetic ones but um i i do take a look at at traffic um

56:25 the thing is when you're using a regx in g4 to look at the traffic that is coming

56:31 from these large language model surfaces don't do it on source medium you have to

56:37 do it on page referral it will show you data on both uh but source medium tends

56:43 to be uh let's call it fuzzier than page referer uh it tends to default

56:50 back to whatever the first kind of session came in from so if i came in on

56:56 traditional organic and then i came in again on um uh a gemini result or chp or

57:02 whatever it might be and i did that within one session so within 30 minutes it's going to attribute it not to chatbt

57:09 um or the other way around you came in on chat gbt and then you came back in through something else and so it's it's

57:14 source medium is not as precise as page referral that being said obviously page referral is also not perfect because

57:23 these platforms might choose not to send page referral so um it's all it's all

57:29 hints it's about not being data driven because datadriven would imply that

57:35 you're only looking at the data and whatever the data tells you to do is

57:41 correct and true and that's what you should do it's about being data informed it's having yes it's something i'm going

57:46 to pay attention to but i'm going to think critically about it i'm going to combine it with other sources of

57:53 information and using this more holistic view then make a decision about what i'm

57:58 going to do next and is my strategy working and not lull myself into a false sense of security because i've

58:05 manipulated the data to make myself feel comfortable

58:11 right now what are the mustd do steps for agencies to a stay ahead as search

Staying Ahead: What Must Agencies Do?

58:17 shifts to aidriven platforms read read

58:23 and read some more like be on top of the

58:29 latest case studies the the latest information um watch all of the google

58:34 keynotes get get really that information first okay um so you can inform your

58:41 clients proactively what's coming and so it's not that a client has to come to you and be like "oh we've seen like at

58:48 google io that there was this ai mode and what do we do now?" you should be watching it and then straight after

58:55 sending out an email saying "hey we know at google ai mode uh google io they

59:01 announced ai mode this is what we've already been doing to prepare for it and

59:07 now we have this new information and this is what it means for you let's get

59:12 on a call next week and talk about how you'd like to implement this in strategy that is when a client feels like i don't

59:20 have to worry about it they've got this and it's that feeling of i trust them

59:27 they're doing a good job i don't have to worry or think about it i can go worry

59:33 about something else that's when you've locked in that client for for life because you're taking away mental weight

59:40 and a lot of a lot of client relationships is emotional a lot of client relationships is human it doesn't

59:46 matter if you're performing exceptionally well if the client doesn't feel safe and secure and safe and secure

59:54 clients proactive communication i've always found is a is a really good way of having that strong relationship and i

1:00:03 i also see as a uh as a good point of upsell as well yes and it's good for you

1:00:09 as well like having informed people in in your company means you are a better

1:00:15 agency there's no way there is no world where you read more and you learn more

1:00:20 and become a worse marketer those are golden words i would say yes i

1:00:28 i personally read a lot and you are absolutely right you cannot go wrong with that at least

Measuring Traffic from New Surfaces: How Can You Do It?

1:00:34 right right now uh with of course these ai chat bots and uh new search surfaces

1:00:40 emerging how should agencies measure and compare traffic and conversions from these sources versus traditional search

1:00:49 so it comes back to these two data points um or as many data points as you can get but i like to use two um one is

1:00:56 you are still using google analytics or whatever your web tracking tool is they do have page referers so you are going

1:01:03 to be looking at for this page referral how many web conversions that i can

1:01:08 track in my analytics tools did i get and what's the conversion rates and there's many many case studies out there

1:01:14 from lots of people which show yes google brings more traffic but church

1:01:19 converts at a higher rate it's higher quality traffic and that's really valuable to understand um but again it's

1:01:28 a sample of reality it's a biased sample of reality um so what i like to do is i

1:01:34 like to complement that with for my clients on after well somewhere in the

1:01:40 conversion journey where it makes sense it's going to differ from industry to industry but somewhere in that conversion journey ask your end users

1:01:48 where did you hear about us and then don't have a list of like 15 different options keep it you know constrained and

1:01:56 realistic um but have have chat gbt on there have google on there and see what

1:02:02 they report back and then look at that verse what your website reporting says verse what your survey data says or

1:02:10 however else you're creating customer insights or if you're in a b2b and you

1:02:15 have sales calls have the sales guy ask at the end you know how did you hear about us have that part of the

1:02:20 conversation um that for me has been really valuable to to know it might not be where their last

1:02:29 click was but it might be that when they think "how did i hear about you?"

1:02:35 their answer is a little bit more insightful cuz that was that was the most impactful

1:02:42 interaction along what was probably a very long customer journey i don't wake

1:02:48 up one morning decide i'm going to go and buy a new car and go and do it for the vast majority i'm sure there are

1:02:53 some very famous people out there with too much money than zeds who do but i'm not in that category i'm not going to

1:02:59 buy a car overnight it's going to be a six months of thinking and researching and starting and stopping like which was

1:03:06 the most impactful in all of those touch points that's the one that they're going to report in the form

High-Converting Traffic: Why Should You Double Down?

1:03:12 so so let's say when you said that uh if we are getting more conversions with chat gpd compared to google now customer

1:03:19 always come back okay why i'm getting more conversions hypothetically let's say a situation where client says i'm

1:03:25 getting more conversions from chat gpt how can i double down on that so what is the solution when somebody says how to

1:03:31 double down on that because i really don't know what people exactly are searching for

1:03:36 you don't know what they're searching for but you can understand category

1:03:42 entry points so it's again going back to these these principles that are proven

1:03:47 in traditional marketing and applying them to seo so i can think of you know

1:03:55 why does somebody come and want to buy what i have or buy my service what might

1:04:02 that be and then create content at those category entry points because that's going to give you that i don't like

1:04:08 saying top of the funnel because there is no funnel um there's just journeys and all journeys look different and loop

1:04:14 back and forth but people know what i mean when i say top of the funnel um so you want to have these kind of like top

1:04:19 of the funnel queries where you can start having that brand interaction with

1:04:26 those users or you can think about okay if i am i don't know

1:04:32 if i'm selling i need to think about something that's

1:04:38 all seasonal i keep on thinking about sunglasses i don't know why um okay if

1:04:44 i'm selling breakfast cereals right and i am killing it every single like what

1:04:50 should i have for breakfast it recommends my cereal and i can not possibly be recommended for breakfast

1:04:56 anymore well then do what cocoa pops did they said "well we're not only a breakfast cereal we are also a special

1:05:02 treat that you can cook with your family and make these afternoon snack bars." you know how can you make a new category

1:05:09 entry point and how can you start optimizing for those queries so now you get in chubby bt when someone asks what

1:05:15 should i have for breakfast and you get into chat chubby bt when someone asks what should i have for a snack today

1:05:24 okay i think the seo has to evolve more as a marketer rather than just thinking one

1:05:30 track about content and links yeah we always should have been thinking

1:05:35 that way and i think that's what really strong marketers have done for a very

1:05:41 long time and so now that ai is coming along we're like cool next cuz we're in

1:05:46 those training data sets because you've always had that expanse beyond

1:05:52 optimizing for i have to get 10 links to this web page that was never going to be

1:05:57 a winning strategy uh now with that we came to the last

Rapid Fire Round: Quick Insights on SEO!

1:06:02 section of our uh show which is a rapid fire round so i'll just ask you quick questions you answer what comes first in

1:06:08 your mind so let me know when you're ready okay i'm ready so favorite seo tool right now

1:06:16 chat pt most exciting google update in the past 12 months oh it wasn't an update but

1:06:23 what they just announced at i io like ai mode okay uh one conference you never skip

1:06:31 marketing festival i went to it for the first time this year and it blew my mind

1:06:36 it was fantastic where was it in australia no no it's in

1:06:41 berno in czech republic okay and book you would give to any seo

1:06:47 strategist how brands grow by byron sharp nothing to do with seo everything to do with

1:06:55 excellent marketing one word that describes the future of seo fun

1:07:03 okay uh jess thank you so much for this insightful and energizing conversation

Outro: What’s Next for You in SEO?

1:07:09 and of course you have given our listeners not just actionable advice but also a complete fresh perspective on how

1:07:15 to think about brand brand identities authorship and strategic seo in and how

1:07:20 to measure actually llm traffic uh and to our listeners don't forget to

1:07:26 subscribe drop a review and share this episode with your marketing team and once again jess thank you for coming to

1:07:32 our show thank you for having me on okay and this is the agency insider show i'm

1:07:38 davit koshell signing off until next time thank you