Podcast With Kyle Roof

How to Master SEO with Scientific Methods with Kyle Roof

Show Notes

Are you ready to rank your website number 1 on search engines? Dive into this comprehensive step-by-step guide on mastering SEO with scientific methods! In this episode of the Agency Insider podcast, I sit down with Kyle Roof, inventor of Page Optimizer Pro, to uncover the secrets behind effective SEO strategies for 2025. Discover how to drive more organic traffic, achieve a #1 ranking, and optimize your site like a pro.

Learn from Kyle's unique journey from trial attorney to SEO expert, and explore his groundbreaking approach to search engine optimization. Whether you're a beginner or an advanced user, this video provides valuable insights into the latest trends and practical tips for improving your website's visibility.

Stay ahead of the curve with proven strategies that will elevate your search engine rankings without relying on guesswork. Want personalized help to rank number 1? https://www.pagetraffic.com Remember, SEO is always evolving, so keeping informed is key to success. Let's get started on your path to mastering SEO today!

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction

00:43 - Early Challenges in SEO

05:14 - Page Optimizer Pro - The Beginning

09:16 - What is Page Optimizer Pro? SEO Tool Comparison

11:08 - Evolution of Page Optimizer Pro

12:45 - Impact of Google Leaks on SEO Tools

13:31 - Scientific Tests Before Launching POP

14:28 - Surprising Insights from SEO Tests

18:00 - Understanding TFIDF in SEO

20:20 - Importance of Topical Authority

22:05 - Overview of SEO Tools

25:13 - Internet Marketing Gold (IMG) Forum Insights

28:42 - Unconventional SEO Experiments

33:00 - Designing and Conducting SEO Experiments

34:50 - Using Google Indexing API for SEO

35:10 - The Math Behind SEO

36:30 - Experiments to Understand Google Better

38:01 - Impact of AI on SEO Strategies

40:45 - Google's LLMs and Their Effect on SEO

42:34 - E-A-T Principles in SEO

46:37 - Understanding Information Gain

49:00 - Types of Clients in SEO

50:00 - Real World SEO Strategies and Results

53:24 - Impact of Google's Helpful Content Update

56:05 - Relevance of Pillar Pages and Long-Form Content

57:24 - Importance of Backlinks in SEO

58:30 - SEO Best Practices for Success

1:00:15 - Staying Updated on SEO Trends

1:01:20 - Personal Interests in SEO

1:02:40 - Final Thoughts and SEO Advice

1:04:09 - Public Speaking Tips for SEO Experts

1:05:50 - Recommended Books for SEO Professionals

1:06:50 - Outro

Transcript

Introduction

0:00 welcome to the agency Insider podcast your go-to source for anything and everything related to SEO and digital

0:06 marketing for practitioners today we have a special guest Kyle rof the

0:11 co-founder of high voltage SEO and the inventor of page optimizer pro Kyle has

0:16 been a significant figure in the Su industry known for its innovative approaches and some unorthodox

0:23 scientific testing methods [Applause]

0:32 [Music] welcome

0:38 Kai thanks for having me happy to be here uh so KY let's start with your

Early Challenges in SEO

0:43 journey in the SE industry can you start by telling us a bit about your background and how you first got into

0:49 the world of su uh sure so uh my previous career I

0:55 was an attorney I was a trial attorney and I did divorce custody and support in criminal defense and I did that for

1:02 about four years and then I was really burnt out and decided to take a year off and I was looking for some of the lowest

1:07 level of responsibility possible and I found a job uh teaching English in South Korea and then that one year turned into

1:16 five and then uh while I was there I started a company and that company required a pretty complex website uh I

1:23 started with a Korean business partner took me a long time to find a set of guys that could could do do the

1:30 site and then once I had those I realized I had strong group a strong team with me and I started General

1:37 Contracting websites essentially kind of putting out bids to to build sites and

1:42 um from there we got into SEO as part of like a continuing service and I saw that

1:48 I was a lot better at SEO than I was at General Contracting websites and so uh transitioned more into SEO and then this

1:56 was about 12 years ago and my SEO career took off from there okay so I'm sure SEO

2:04 at that time was I mean penguin and Panda update was coming around that time

2:09 and penguin hit after a couple of years you started I came in right after penguin right in

2:16 2012 okay okay so so what were some of the early challenges you faced in your SEO journey and more importantly how did

2:23 those experiences shaped your current approach well something that I learned

2:30 early on so we started the agency in uh 2013 beginning of 2014 with my business

2:38 partner Andrew Steven and you know I think an initial

2:43 challenge that everybody has is you know getting clients but a more meta version of that though is What

2:51 Makes You Different why should people come to you as an agency and really trying to figure out what our what our

2:57 voice was what what is our brand what what message are we trying to convey because if you don't have a voice or if

3:04 you don't have a point of view then you're probably just arguing or

3:09 negotiating price or maybe how fast you can deliver things but you should really

3:14 have a reason that people are coming to you they should know that you offer this type of service or you have this type of

3:19 an approach so that when they are using you you're not just one of you know 10,000 SEO agencies

3:26 and we found uh you had mentioned this

3:31 uh unorthodox testing the first place that I spoke my first

3:36 conference I spoke at was in 2015 and it was at that conference that I presented on on testing and I thought that I would

3:43 be kind of showing what I was doing and the people to talk about what they were doing and to be collaborative and about five minutes into the talk I realized

3:49 that nobody else is running tests like this and I got on the I got off stage

3:54 and then I got on the phone with my business partner I was like Hey Nobody's doing this we're the only ones doing this and that means that we can take the

4:00 approach of that we run scientific tests and that what we bring to the table is

4:05 that we've tested things and we've found what moves the needle most consistently and that's what we bring and initially

4:12 we would say with clients you know potential clients hey we know you're talking to other agencies but ask them

4:18 the results of their two most recent tests and if they don't have that that

4:23 means that they're testing on your site that means they're learning on your site

4:28 you know if you feel comfortable with that then go with them but what we do is we test over here and then what we bring to the table is what has the best chance

4:34 to move the needle and that got got us kind of in the door and established as a as a brand that was doing something that

4:41 was not just your regular kind of SEO

4:46 agency yeah that that I think gives you a differentiation as well yeah exactly

4:53 the unorthodox why I said because I have been in Chang and of course we have met there and I have been in couple of your

4:59 talk and also in Bali when you first presented there that was also I was

5:05 there so that's why I found them unorthodox but yes interesting we're going to talk further so I do remember that so uh

Page Optimizer Pro - The Beginning

5:14 let's talk about uh page optimizer pro which we call as Pop I guess yes so yes

5:22 so you devop page optimizer pro and of course uh IMG Forum as well so these

5:27 tools and forums that have become essential for many SEO professionals and yes I am subscriber to both oh thank you

5:36 thank you very much yeah uh so what was the initial inspiration behind creating

5:42 page Optimizer fro and what Gap did you see in the market that you felt uh needed

5:49 addressing we were actually using another tool for on page a very bigname

5:54 tool and we're having a lot of success with it with the feature that they had uh and they did an update and they took

6:00 the feature away and then we were without the thing that we were quite successful with and then I was like I

6:06 looked around for a little bit to find something similar and I found some things where that were similar but then I realized you know we had figured out

6:12 something so good here and I don't want to be beholden to another tool where

6:17 they might take that feature away and so I was like let's just see if we can do our own and

6:24 so I had I wrote an algorithm on determining like how many times to put

6:30 terms in different places and I'd run all the tests and just you know found the things that Google's looking at and

6:38 initially we the first few times we did it by hand kind of basically going through and Counting the terms and then

6:44 doing the math by hand and then it worked from there though we realized that that's unscalable you can't you

6:52 can't do all that by hand uh and so our other business partner her name's uh Maria de she wrote a script and we were

7:00 using Google Sheets and uh pulling things into Google Sheets and using a script that she wrote to do it and then

7:06 she's like you know what uh the the the scripts aren't going to work or the uh Google Sheets aren't

7:13 going to work because you could run one and it was fine but as soon as you ran five of them it it would it would break

7:18 and so she's like I think I can learn Python and and in two weeks she learned python python and in week three she

7:24 actually wrote the first script for for pop and then we started just giving it

7:30 for free on the back end of our agency site you know people just go to a page that we had set up there and you'd put

7:35 in your keyword and your location and your email and we'd email you a sheet and we started crashing our agency site

7:43 by doing that and so then we was like I think we should actually get a real python developer in here and and that's

7:49 where we created the SAS tool then we gave it away we contined to give it away for free for about six months and you

7:55 know initially the reason actually we we put it out there was I was showing some SEO friends of mine I was like would you like this does this look useful to you

8:01 and they're like yes I would I would love that and we finally hit in June of

8:08 2018 we had to start charging just because the server Bill kept going up and I kind of reached out to everyone

8:14 that was using the tool I was like hey look I got to charge like a dollar a report you know just to kind of

8:20 cover this cost and everyone was pretty chill but that first month in June 2018 uh we made

8:25 $2,600 which meant 2600 reports were run and I AB couldn't believe it that it

8:32 that it that it went so well but now we're doing more than 2600 reports a day

8:39 and we're approaching like two million runs of the tool since then which is you

8:45 know pretty spectacular so the need that we we filled was our own need you know this was something that I

8:51 needed H to be successful and then I kind of showed it to some other people like yeah I'd like to use that too and

8:57 then so the the the Gap in the market was my own Gap and if you can solve you

9:03 know a problem that you have and then you can do it for a price point that people can get on board with and yeah

9:09 you can you too can do your own SEO tool right right so so of course uh for our

What is Page Optimizer Pro? SEO Tool Comparison

9:16 first time listeners who don't know what is pop about could you explain how it works and what makes it different from

9:22 other SEO on the tool and let's say Surfer SEO so yeah it's an onpage SEO tool the

9:30 main concept is you put in the page that you're trying to optimize and then we tell you the words you need to put on

9:35 the page and how many times to put them and where to put them so that Google will like your page more than your competitors one of the main differences

9:42 between our tool and every other tool is that we have our own math we we do our own we we have our own math we do our

9:49 own we have our own algorithm we're not repackaging somebody else's apis uh into

9:54 something else and it's the technology that we developed so anytime there's an update we shift immediately we have that

10:01 built into our tool we can evaluate what's going on when when there are big updates and things need to be reworked

10:07 we know we're doing that the other thing is that the uh we're laser focused on on page SEO

10:15 that's what we do best and so we're not an allinone tool we're not trying to be an all-in-one tool anything that we

10:21 offer any of the features we develop are meant just to improve your onpage SEO and and we try to say at a price point

10:28 so that people can get Enterprise prise level data at not Enterprise level prices I think we are the I don't know

10:34 if we're the cheapest cheapest tool but we are the cheapest that offers this type of data and we really what we want

10:41 is that you know if you're a oneman band that you can compete against a large

10:46 agency you know because you can get access to the type of data that they can get access to but it's not going to to

10:52 break the bank and also that it's not going to you have to make a decision between our tool and another tool if there's another tool you're using you

10:58 know you're using an ah refs or an sem rush or or a Moz that you can still use

11:04 that tool for what you need and an Our tool for for on page okay and U so so how has page

Evolution of Page Optimizer Pro

11:11 optimizer pro evolved since its initial release well now you know we have a few

11:18 tools that a lot of other people don't have such as we've got an eat Tool uh

11:23 where we look for eat signals and then we actually just released our uh what we're call next gen eat where kind of

11:29 looks at like is this good content and so it goes so we have one version where where he looks for um signals that are

11:37 present on the page such as um uh current copyright or do you have authors

11:44 is there an address or their phone numbers that kind of thing so looking for those kind of checks but then we also used the quality Rader uh Quality

11:51 quality Raider guidelines we trained our AI to look for in each of the sections

11:56 the E the E the A and the T basically is this good content does it satisfy this

12:02 and it's a pretty interesting check because well e won't help you rank it will it does kind of help you get into

12:09 on the content side like did you write something that's good you know and and the and this new feature actually does a

12:16 pretty decent job of answering that we have a schema tool that generates schema we give you access to Google's NLP API

12:23 if you want that we have our own uh NLP Library which is included which at no extra cost but if you want access

12:29 Google's NLP API we give you access to that so I have a lot of features that are really there for advanced on page if

12:37 if you also if you're not looking for advanced homepage we also have just the basic reports and all that of course um

12:42 that you can run with so so after the Google famous leaks did anything change

Impact of Google Leaks on SEO Tools

12:48 with the the pop as for as for the features or backend or did you incorporate any of leeks or not not

12:55 really too much for us it was just more validation of this is what we've been telling you this what been telling you for years

13:02 okay I don't think I don't I think very few people did anything with that information you know those was one of

13:07 the things that it came out and people looked at it and they're all excited and geeking out for a minute but then I bet people did nothing with it we did it

13:14 just to verify that the stuff that we were saying or factors were located in there and kind of pondering some other

13:22 things that we can do and and we're looking at some features but I bet most people didn't do one thing with with any

13:28 of that information so so I heard you did more than four uh

Scientific Tests Before Launching POP

13:33 400 plus scientific test before launching pop is that correct yeah so I've run a few a few

13:41 tests on the algorithm the the stuff that I started with was just is this a ranking Factor you know I was looking at

13:48 when I was starting off an SEO and I'd say like you know is this a ranking factor and put that into Google you get

13:55 three yeses three Nos and three maybe and it was just like well that's that's not going to work and so I develop a way

14:02 to test if something is a ranking factor and then using that expanding on that testing is this Factor stronger than

14:08 that factor you know like which one is more important and then finding an order of importance and which are the top

14:14 factors and so all of that knowledge is what's also coded into pop is how that

14:20 works from from all of those tests which again nobody else is running those tests either you know none of that is is being

14:27 done okay so what was some of the uh most surprising uh uh insights you gain

Surprising Insights from SEO Tests

14:34 from those tests um a lot of it was kind of a framework and and just understanding how

14:40 the AL algorithm Works generally such as you know Google doesn't look at the page as a human looks at the page and we want

14:47 to assign you know human qualities to Google but Google isn't reading you know

14:52 Google is doing math so it's you know it's taking words and it's tokenizing them you know and and it's looking at

14:59 them that way so you know things like spelling errors or grammar that kind of stuff is not a

15:06 ranking Factor you know Google doesn't care care about that at all because again Google's not reading Google also

15:12 isn't making value judgments Google isn't saying you know oh this was written at a an appropriate grade level

15:18 and it flows so nicely and I'm a better person for read having read this content

15:24 Google doesn't do any of that you know and that really got me to the idea that um it's an algorithm and if you satisfy

15:31 the algorithm you could do very well now obviously you need to write good content for conversion but when it comes to

15:39 ranking that that is completely math-based some things that were a lot of fun were like um uh so I I I threw I

15:49 had a completely blank page nothing on it whatsoever and I fired um 20,000 Links at it with a particular anchor

15:57 text and the page wouldn't Rank and so it gets the idea that you have to have a

16:03 page you have to have content you know essentially a blank page won't rank

16:09 however you can then you can have a page that looks blank and you can set display To None on

16:16 all of your content and that page will rank you know so you know it's not how

16:22 somebody's looking at the page it's how Google is looking at the page and Google's looking at the code and so if

16:28 you have things in the code and you've got them in CSS even if display is set to none you can still get that to rank

16:36 that's um that's also a big thing that a lot of people don't really understand at all is that if there's something in the

16:42 code Google's probably looking at it and considering it uh a lot of people will say oh Pop's word count is off you know

16:48 in you know it'll say you know within WordPress it says I only have a thousand words I'm well you might only have a

16:54 thousand words in the body but however your page builder is set up you you

16:59 probably have a lot more words than that and Google's considering all of that and it's a concept that a lot of people

17:05 don't quite understand that there's a lot more text that Google is going to consider than you than you actually see with your eyes right so so uh this

17:13 display n still works I'm sorry the dis putting display

17:18 none is still works yeah I did it just a couple months ago okay okay that was

17:24 that was the big too like you know when people talk about like after hcu or after the March Court everything changes

17:29 nothing changes the algorithm stays the same they pull some levers and turn some dials and I think especially with the

17:36 last two updates what they were really doing was manually going after sites that they just didn't like but it wasn't

17:41 like a huge algorithm change that all of a sudden SEO is done and it's like some AI God is now you know evalua all the

17:49 pages it's still the same Bots it's still the same algorithm all the stuff

17:54 all those things that are still that were factors in 2015 are still factors today so

17:59 and uh so there is a concept about TF and IDF right so uh TF IDF yeah right so

Understanding TFIDF in SEO

18:08 can you explain the concept of tfid because I think a page a pop utilizes it

18:15 right so how does that we do have we do offer a score if you'd like to see a score but uh yeah so T it's term

18:21 frequency divided by inverse document frequency and it's the basic idea of if you have a whole bunch of let's say you

18:28 were trying to find a book uh uh about giraffes and there were 10 books that

18:36 there were there and one book had giraffes a hundred times and all the other books had giraffes one time it's

18:42 more likely that the book you want is the the book about that has drafts a 100 times so the term frequency it's used

18:49 more and and it's used only in one book is the idea of term frequency divided by

18:55 the inverse document frequency there's only one document that has it 100 times now what that means for SEO though is

19:03 that as terms are used a certain amount of times in certain

19:08 places Google can determine what that page is about and which page might be the best option for them to show now do

19:16 you remember when there was the the Yandex leak a little while back so

19:22 Yandex is trying to model what Google is doing and I think they've got they when they first did their thing they actually

19:28 grabbed some Google Engineers to put things together and what it looks like Yandex is using is called bm25 and

19:34 that's basically tfidf plus word count and that's a lot of what of the math

19:39 that pop is doing is something similar to that it's it's a bag of words model meaning all the words are just going to the bag and then you're pulling out

19:46 frequency but it is kind of like instead of one big bag it's like bags many bags because there's you know the body of

19:52 your site there are the titles of your site there's the subheadings those are all different sections that Google's looking at okay but then take word count

19:59 into consideration from there and then getting your term frequency is a pretty decent way of determining what Google

20:05 will like and then I mean it's a really good predictive model so if if Google

20:11 isn't even goog is not using that exactly whatever they are using is pretty close to that and it gets you into the ballpark to get pretty good

20:18 math for how to do your on page SEO so so does because lot a lot of

Importance of Topical Authority

20:24 people just I mean one page SEO is just not one page so a lot of now people talk about topical maps and everything does

20:31 that is that also a factor where people talk about because there's a lot of chatter online which talks about you

20:37 should have topical map topical Authority and whatever topical so does that also is a fact

20:43 enough uh I mean for ranking one page probably not you know Google doesn't

20:49 rank websites Google ranks web pages and so having topical Authority is isn't

20:56 necess going to help one page that's going to help all both votes rise on the site so the site has more Authority and

21:02 and that's going to help your page and then also if you have pages that are gaining strength because uh they went

21:08 after terms within that say that cluster for you within that topical map they're going to be terms that are going to be faster to win those are going to get

21:14 impressions and clicks they're going to build their own authority if you have good internal linking that's also going to help your target page Simply Having

21:21 that though isn't necess going to help you rank you still need to have a page about a particular topic you have to optimize for that topic or concept or

21:28 keyword and then I do highly recommend doing topical maps from there because that's going to build your overall trust

21:36 and Authority for the site and that's going to benefit that Target page and of

21:41 course the internal linking also with a similar content plays role I guess only makes sense to do it that way right at

21:49 the end of the day that's also good for humans you know so they come in and they find the answers to the questions they

21:55 have and that they that's that's what being a topical Authority is is is that is your site the place to go to get

22:00 answers and so having things clustered in a way that makes sense can only help

Overview of SEO Tools

22:06 you okay so besides page optimizer pro which other SEO tools do you use or uh

22:14 recommend you know when it comes to like reporting I'm just using search console uh and pulling it into um looker Studio

22:21 formally data studio all all data is bad

22:26 data when it comes down to it and the stuff from sech console seems to be less

22:32 bad then we'll use sem rush and ahfs um but then I like I'll build my own tools

22:38 too so within the agency maybe something that a lot of people don't realize is that you can build your own stuff if you're taking a tool and and and you're

22:45 pulling into something else there there might be a way to build your own thing through different apis and something

22:50 like data for SEO a really good resource to um to build your own version of

22:57 things it's not over expensive and in the end probably saves you money you have like upfront development costs

23:02 maybe if you don't know how to code I don't know how to code but if you're getting the data that makes things better for you you probably end up

23:08 saving time and once you're kind of running your own reports and if you're doing good SEO then you're you're making

23:15 more money there too but that's also really useful yeah so we recently used

23:21 data for SEO to build our own tool and the cost of running is almost an $100

23:28 with and we running for all the clients uh we are running technical we even integrated Google search console that's

23:35 free you get the API yeah so everything comes into it it's all free so it doesn't cost us running more than $100

23:41 and maybe right now it's even on a shared hosting it works fine just

23:46 pulling the data so you don't require resources I think if you want to make yourself a mature agency like if you

23:52 want to go from freelancer to small agency now you want to become a mature kind of medium-sized agency

23:59 it only makes sense to me to build your own tools I think more sophisticated clients are expecting that they don't

24:04 want to see a screaming frog report you know they don't they don't want that they want you to pull in everything into

24:11 a report and it should be more proprietary and there are a lot of tools that do but pop has an API too you can

24:17 pull it if you want that data right as well and there are a lot of tools probably any tool that you're using that

24:22 you're kind of creating some report you could pull into something and make your own white labeled report that would be

24:28 it's just gonna be value add for you and U better for your clients One dashboard where people can see everything rather

24:35 than 20 different places right exactly and and you can also then fashion the data in the way that you know how you

24:41 present it you know the the you know to the how remember we talking about like your point of view your your voice so

24:48 you said like we're the SEO agency that does this and then you've got a report that reflects that so that you're

24:53 speaking the same language with the with the client about how you approach SEO what your kpis were what your

25:00 deliverables were and then how you're getting to your goals yeah and as you rightly said all data is bad data unless

25:07 you present it well that's right right right so let's talk about IMG Forum so

Internet Marketing Gold (IMG) Forum Insights

25:15 uh sure sure you are also a co-founder for the internet marketing gold IMG Forum which has become a popular

25:22 platform for SEO professionals can you tell us about the origin of the IMG and

25:27 how it's country contributing to the SEO Community today initially it was just all testing

25:34 um was and what we realize is while people really like that it's not enough

25:40 to keep people around because you know you learn some something interesting and like oh that's cool but what we realize

25:46 is that people really want to learn how to do SEO or they want to learn how to like take that information and apply it

25:51 and so we've transitioned a lot more excuse me I'm so

26:00 sorry so we've we've transitioned into not just tests the test is a much smaller aspect of of of the platform but

26:07 now I have I think I have four or five courses in there I've got an onpage course I've got a white hat course and I

26:14 think we launch about a course a month so it's a very very new information and it kind of

26:20 covers a lot of different topics within SEO and from stuff that kind of some

26:26 standard stuff to like how to do link building I do link building in 2024 to like parasite SEO which is pretty hot

26:32 right now and you know cro for SEO that kind of stuff and it ranges from

26:37 beginner all the way up to Advanced so there's kind of something for everyone there there's just a ton of information

26:43 and then there's a you can if you want to ask me questions for for $97 a month you can pretty much ask me all the

26:49 questions you want and uh I I personally answer all of those okay so uh and for

26:55 those who may not be familiar what are the key benefits of participate participating in the IMG Forum uh if you

27:02 can let that know and how does it help SEO professionals stay ahead in such a

27:07 rabidly developing field well I think just having a place where you can ask a question and one you're not going to get

27:15 attacked like you would in like a Facebook group you know and free groups are free for a reason that's not to say

27:22 there aren't good groups out there but uh it's a place where you can ask a question even if you think it's a stupid question it's the safe space to ask that

27:29 stupid question okay and and the people that respond are are good there are several people that um are regular

27:35 contributors and then of course I'm there just about every day and uh you can get some you get some decent

27:41 answers okay so how many how many members does IMG Forum has now

27:46 if I think there are like 3,000 active people in it now something like that wow

27:52 so people come and go there's there's a whole kind of thing of people coming and going but it's somewhere around there I think is the numberers that is what we

27:59 consider active so I remember you offering a lifetime deal for just some

28:04 few minutes a few hours I think it was for a day so I went out and grabbed it

28:10 oh right on yeah I think we did we do that for Black Friday or did we do that

28:15 for end of year one of the two I think yeah it was one of the you just said you would never do it again it just one time

28:21 and it said maybe it's just like lifetime I said why not yeah we might

28:27 have lied though cuz I think that went really well we might do it again this Black Friday we haven't decided okay but

28:33 in the moment in the moment though our thought was that was going to be the one time but we could we could do it again okay okay now let's talk about SE

Unconventional SEO Experiments

28:42 strategies and insights uh of course you've been known for some unconventional Su experiments like

28:49 ranking Lowa some pages and can you share one of your most memorable experiments and what it taught you about

28:56 Google algorithm well H I listed a couple that the uh earlier

29:04 that kind of stand out it's one recently that I

29:10 enjoyed uh well you know and the after the March core update um people were

29:15 saying that backlinks are are done backlinks don't matter anymore that was a big thing that was going around that

29:21 Google eliminated the need for them and that yeah that nothing will work so what

29:27 we set up were um PDF pages so it's a PDF it's and then within there and we we

29:35 were doing on a test site H and we sent links to pages on another test site so

29:40 we ranked ranked a whole bunch of pages they're all ranking for the same term we create these uh PDF pages and then send

29:47 links from the PDF so we're sending PDF links uh over to um some test pages and

29:52 they moved the needle they take they took the test page all the way up to number one and so it it's kind of like

29:58 these are the lowest links you could possibly build you know like you know zero value links and they're still being

30:05 considered and read by the algorithm so any of the other links you're doing are also still being read by the and really

30:12 it kind of highlights just the reaction if you if you aren't doing your own

30:18 tests or if you're not part of some place that is doing tests you really just are doing a lot of guess work

30:23 sometimes and that's what you see across all a whole bunch of forums that's what you see across you know the the journals

30:31 online is well Google said this and then people run with it and you know from the from the Google leak we know that Google

30:36 is just a complete liar and they lie to your face all the time you know and and

30:44 the other thing that they really allow too is they allow misinterpret misinterpretation they'll they'll send out something vague and they'll just

30:50 allow people to run with it and that's where people come up with the idea that you know backlinks don't run anymore they're like oh Google said this and

30:56 they interpret it that way and then they'll say that so but we can go check it out that's what's really annoying

31:03 that like you can literally go go check it out you could try it and see and see

31:09 what happens it doesn't have to be like a super scientific test on all these things too just try something have a

31:14 site that you know isn't your money site and a site they don't care about too much and when you when you see a new

31:20 technique where you hear something somebody say like this works every time try it on that site and see how it goes

31:27 and you're going to learn so much more than you know just following somebody else's guess work so usually one of the

31:33 very common questions which come across is how much once you build a link how much time does it take for Google to

31:39 factor it usually seems like a four to eight week kind of experience doesn't it for most links maybe six week as an

31:45 average some six weeks right yeah yeah I

31:50 think it takes at least a month plus or the but then like in in some of the tests we run when there are not a lot of

31:57 factors is going on it can be a matter of days you know when as soon as the link is

32:02 scrolled okay uh oh a big one that I did with with uh

32:08 linkify we did a no follow test you know because people say that like no followings don't pass juice and we found

32:13 that they do Under the right conditions you know and the right conditions are if

32:19 the page has traffic if the page has organic traffic and referral traffic that will pass juice but that test page

32:26 moved very quickly almost as soon as the link was placed it moved

32:31 so I think it was a matter of a week for that to go I think more than anything I

32:37 bet it was just it's just a cach date you know Google crawling and and and factoring the page did it so that was

32:44 quite quick yes because I I still believe I mean I always believed no follow has

32:50 always always matters they are as good as do follows as you correctly said as

32:56 long as those pages are getting TR trffic that's right right now how do you

Designing and Conducting SEO Experiments

33:01 design and conduct your SEO experiments to ensure

33:06 reliability well the biggest thing is let's say you run a test and you get a result you want to repeat that test four

33:15 or five times to get the same result and that's timec consuming and difficult the better way to do it is to test in the

33:21 inverse and you test the other way so in a link example you know you point A Link at a

33:28 page uh and and it goes up so that's a positive factor then you want to take a scenario where you've got links already

33:35 coming in and you remove a link and you see if it drops you test the other way you test in

33:40 the inverse and once you can do that then you can confirm quite quickly that you have something and so a lot of tests

33:46 are set up so that we'll test one way and then we'll test it the other way and

33:51 if we get the opposite result then we know we've got we've got something and that's the I think the best way to

33:58 confirm your results is testing in the inverse that's an interesting way to

34:03 test rather than being bogged down doing multiple test right yeah you can I mean we've done it before and that was I

34:10 can't remember when I figured out testing in the inverse but before we just kind of repeating the test and running them again and running them

34:16 again and running them again but you run into problems when you set have tests because there are things that are outside your control you know your test Pages don't index sometimes or you know

34:24 you were doing this and all of a sudden a page drops out or you realize another Factor moved in so testing in the

34:30 inverse was a really big movement forward in terms of how to run these test because it saves time but then it

34:38 also is a real strong confirmation you know we did it we did it this way and it went up and then we removed it we set up

34:44 the test where we had it and then we remove it and it drops feel really you got something there okay so do you

Using Google Indexing API for SEO

34:51 mentioned indexing becomes sometime uh so do you use any indexing tools or you use Google API or how do

34:59 you yeah Google's indexing API is great and and using it through something like SEO press or something like that is a

35:05 really good way to do it okay okay in one of the online

The Math Behind SEO

35:10 interview as often otherwise as well you mentioned thatu is a math uh can you

35:15 elaborate on this and how you apply these mathematic principality or

35:21 scientific principality in SE oh it's just that for each key

35:27 keyword you know things things do change keyword to keyword Niche to Niche but there's the idea of there's a certain

35:33 amount of times you need to put your target keyword its variations its contextual terms how many times they

35:39 need to show up in specific places on your page and so that that's how it's

35:45 applied is is is looking at what's there and then and then doing but it's not

35:50 necessarily more it's not an an arms race there are times when you want to do

35:56 more than your competitors there times when you want to do the same amount and there are times you want to do less and that's kind of where the algor that I've

36:03 written comes into play so it's not just an average it's not a page one average

36:10 because the best on page for a particular keyword is probably not

36:15 number one it's often maybe in the number eight spot or it could be on page two and so something else that we do is

36:21 we identify which one is the best and key off of that and that's all part of

36:28 how the the math gets applied okay uh uh can you share some

Experiments to Understand Google Better

36:33 insights into the type of tests and experiments you conduct to understand Google algorithm

36:39 with a lot of those initial tests were just figure out if something is a factor or not you somebody said this is a

36:45 factor and let's let's see if it is and then once we had a whole bunch of factors it's like well let's see if we can figure out which one's strongest you

36:52 know it's the title tag is is the strongest one you know what's the next strongest it's it's the H1 and then

36:59 you've got uh H2 H3 H4 something that's interesting is H1 is stronger than H2 H2 is stronger than H3 H3 is strong H4 and

37:06 then that's as far as it goes Google doesn't care about H5 and that's all knowledge that comes through testing and

37:13 through uh through getting in um

37:19 so there are other people that like within IMG they will run tests and some of one of the fun things is that the

37:25 tests that I run are just questions that I have know problems that I've got you know

37:30 where maybe we're working on a client situation or somebody's Consulting with me and well let's run a test let's let's

37:35 see if we can figure something out or often people will come with an issue with pop and say hey uh a competitor is

37:42 doing this weird thing is that a ranking Factor you know should we be concerned

37:48 about that and we can we can test those kind of things so almost all my tests are solving a

37:54 real world problem or trying to get knowledge that I need and then we'll either kind of plug that into pop or we'll use it on the client side all

Impact of AI on SEO Strategies

38:01 right now of course let's talk a bit about AI I mean how could any podcast of

38:07 SEO not have an AI so so with the rise of AI in content creation and how do you

38:13 see AI impacting Su strategies in the coming years the thing that the AI does at

38:20 least in the the language models we have now is that it does speed up content creation uh and it kind of speeds up

38:28 kind of mapping out content in terms of like what your content schedule might be but it doesn't help you do SEO it can't

38:34 do SEO it doesn't know anything about SEO you know uh so if with the if the if

38:41 we still have the same models we have now next year and the year after nothing's really going to change in

38:46 terms of SEO it would have to be a new model for AI for for SEO at least on our

38:52 side to be I think impacted at all the the line that I like is that if

38:59 you're bad at SEO AI doesn't make you good at SEO AI just helps you do bad SEO

39:05 faster you still have to you still have to know how SEO works and the other

39:11 thing too is so many people just get they just want to hit a button and they don't really want to think about things

39:17 and there might be some tool that come on that might actually be beneficial and might and have ai you know pop has AI

39:23 components but just pushing a button isn't going to get you anywhere you know you do have to have a little bit of

39:29 knowledge of how to apply that from whatever you get from the tool and so

39:34 right now I'm not overly concerned about AI what I'm uh what I am excited about actually

39:42 is that and I know in the last six eight months a lot of people are freaking out they're leaving SEO and that's great

39:48 like the more people that get out the more money there is for all of us to make

39:53 so yeah the the the fear and the uncertainty

39:58 that that's been going on right now is great like that's actually been really

40:03 good for me so mayi doesn't scare me at least I mean if you you remember in 2022

40:08 in February when all that came out that was supposed to be the end right well now we're in you know August of 2024 and

40:16 it still hasn't ended you know it's so weird how that happens that you know my entire career six uh SEO died every six

40:23 months and still going so yeah I myself have spoken in couple of talks

40:31 where everybody said Su is dead so yes and I've been doing it since two the first time I spoke Su dead was in

40:38 2010 there you go couple years before me and I'm sure it's been dying every six months for you too absolutely right so

Google's LLMs and Their Effect on SEO

40:46 so now there is something with Google search generative experience which of course Google AI so optimizing for llms

40:55 is now tending starting to gain prominence so how do you see llms influencing SEO and what should business

41:03 do to optimize for these models it seems like it's it's it's going to be entity based right with a lot of NLP type stuff

41:10 and then just good structure and that that's how you got in how you get the featured Snippets is by having an H2

41:16 high up on the page right so it's clear for the the bot to find and it clearly

41:21 answers the question and and they can use that got to be something pretty similar to that I think is what you can

41:27 show I I haven't looked too much at it yet because it is changing quite a bit and I don't think they've really landed

41:32 on it but the the big thing there is I sent a message to my dad and his wife

41:39 and they are 66 and I was like hey what do you think of the new Google features and they were

41:45 like what new Google features and then then I I asked them because the

41:51 because chat GPT is released there that search engine feature right and I was like hey have you used chat GPT search

41:57 feature if you used chat GPT at all and uh my dad's wife responded what's chat GPT I don't think we've heard of it and

42:07 so I I don't think there's big market adoption on the consumer side or on the user side for for AI and the AI

42:15 features so again it's not anything that's overly concerning but we will want to figure out at some point how to

42:21 get into those areas because I'm sure there going to be clicks there to be had but I I if

42:27 especially if whatever you're selling and the market SK is a little bit older they're probably not clicking on any of that or using any of that stuff right

E-A-T Principles in SEO

42:34 right right let's talk about a bit about the uh the content and eat so uh how do

42:41 you approach the concept of eat of course experience expertise authoritativeness and trustworthiness in

42:48 your SE strategies and what advice would you give uh to businesses trying to improve their eat

42:55 signals well the most important thing is trust and and the idea I think the

43:01 concept there is who is responsible for this website and who is responsible for the content and so you need to make it

43:08 as clear as possible that you are an actual thing that you're a real company and you exist in time and space and that

43:15 it's easy for people to get a hold of you and so that's having an address on your site that's having your company

43:21 information on the site that's having a local phone number that's identifying through schema that you're an actual

43:26 organization you have proper licenses and and those types of things

43:32 that's what you need to have the thing I would add on top of that then would be external signals coming in uh through

43:38 the form of citations that you are an entity that's in the correct citations for your industry and that you're in the

43:44 correct uh Industries for your location and that that all that information is consistent and it's consistent with what

43:51 Google will find on your site and I would also toss in it's a good idea to do your Google business profile formerly

43:56 known as gmbb but get that done and make sure

44:02 that you're submitting all your stuff to all the Google entities that you can that you got your YouTube page set up

44:07 stuff like that that's all kind of connected within Google's sphere make sure all that information is is accurate

44:12 and then just present yourself as real as possible to a bot because remember Google isn't gonna look at oh this is a

44:19 beautiful website these guys are obviously legitimate Google isn't looking at how pretty the site is Google's looking for those signals that

44:24 it can find to show that you're a real thing and uh real things have current you know copyrights real things have

44:32 actual phone numbers that are local that kind of stuff like it's all that that's kind of stuff is what you need to get on

44:37 there on your page and that's how I would approach is make yourself real and then you should be pretty good okay and

44:45 when you talk about the website beautiful I mean of course Google doesn't know that doesn't want to care about so what about the navigation so

44:53 does it make sense to have links in the top navigation more links bottom in content or does it

44:59 matter most navigations are fiction so it's just a way to get from one place to

45:05 another but it doesn't really have doesn't have to match up to like the the structure of the site at all the links

45:11 that I worry about the most are links with embody content because they will pass the most amount of juice through your site and I like to set up virtual

45:17 silos so the idea is that you've got a Target page and that's the one you're trying to push up and you have supporting pages on the site that you

45:24 built to support that Target page and kind of link them together and then link to the Target page doing that with

45:30 embody content from there I don't really stress too much about links that are in the the header the sidebar or the

45:36 footer so you talk about virtual silos so does that mean let's say if I'm building a page about some particular

45:42 industry do I need to have a folder structure accordingly or it doesn't matter so that's a physical Silo when it

45:49 has like that parent child relationship where you got the folder and then the you know the child folder from there the

45:55 virtual silos set up through through that relationship is up through links that are within body content so that

46:01 means the supporting Pages can live anywhere on the site the the target page could be a blog post and your supporting

46:08 Pages could be actual pages on the site you know depend they can be anything and

46:14 they can cross and it doesn't really matter the the thing that most people do that's easier for most people to conceptualize is they've got like a

46:21 service page or a product page or a category page and they've got a Blog section and they're using those blogs to

46:26 support support that's how most people do it but that doesn't matter at all the what's a top level page or Target page

46:33 and what's a supporting page can be they can live anywhere on the site okay okay now uh you often spoken about the

Understanding Information Gain

46:41 importance of Information Gain right so what exactly can you explain this

46:48 concept means and how professionals can use it to improve the content

46:54 Information Gain quite simply is just adding more content to the page that's the it's a pretty simple definition yeah

47:01 you have gained information but you know in the name is is a very big clue uh you

47:07 can't just add words to the page for the sake of adding words okay you know so you've got a page about

47:13 vacuums you would get no benefit if you added a a um a whole paragraph about

47:20 laptops right okay they're completely separate Concepts so you you have to stay on topic and you have to be close

47:27 related to so it has to be gained information and so a really good place

47:33 to find Information Gain would be in forums uh like Reddit within Kora and I

47:41 would actually look for questions perhaps that uh are not necessarily and

47:46 people also ask because if you find a question that is directly on point but Google hasn't necessarily seen it before

47:52 that's Information Gain you know you've add added something

47:57 to the conversation that wasn't there before but Google can see that it's on point so you didn't go off track and ask

48:04 a answer question about the laptops you're still with within like the best vacuums of 2024 but it's a question from

48:10 a forum that hasn't been answered before because you don't see it in a paa so I would I would take that type of

48:16 approach okay so so when people are writing Fu it's better to go and have a look in the Reddit rather than the pasas

48:24 I would do both I mean but like when you well when you're looking for probably that's that's a good point most

48:31 of what is on the page you probably want Google to be familiar with right and

48:36 then maybe 10% of it would be that information gain you know just a little

48:43 bit from those forums so I would take the majority of my stuff from like people also ask things that Google clearly already knows stuff that's

48:50 already on competitor pages so goog's rdit expects it and then a little bit

48:56 maybe 10 % of it from something fresh right so so of course you run an

Types of Clients in SEO

49:01 SE agency as well so do you handle both Enterprise as well as small businesses or just Enterprise client so we've had a

49:09 merger with another company and so now I'm on the board uh of the company and I've sold a a healthy portion of my

49:16 stocks or my shares in the company so uh I am still there but on the board so I'm not running the day-to-day of it and um

49:24 but when I was running the dayto day of it yeah we would do uh uh from small to to

49:32 to business to Enterprise and then we kind of set a number where we didn't really want to go below $2,000 a month

49:39 for for clients and then that does weed out certain types of clients where we stop we were doing some local but it's

49:47 kind of bigger local than than your regular mom and pop local because a lot of Mom and Pops can't really afford the

49:53 $23,000 a month so that just kind of naturally moved us into certain areas we move we do a lot with

49:59 fintech uh Insurance stuff like that so so could you share some real world

Real World SEO Strategies and Results

50:05 examples of s SE strategies you have implemented that have led to a uh significant

50:11 results one of my favorite stories is we got a bank and they were a brand new

50:17 bank and they were a completely online bank so it's a bank that doesn't have any branches and they now sponsor an NBA

50:24 team but they were not sponsoring NBA team at the time and we're we're sitting there and like you know nobody knows who

50:31 we are and um we were the outside Consultants they had a really they had a great SEO team

50:38 uh inhouse and um it was really a lot of fun to work with them but something that

50:44 I re you know we're kind of brainstorming how do we go against Wells Fargo and PNC and you know Bank of

50:50 America and those types of Banks and what I realized is that Wells Fargo does not optimize for their their their their

50:58 warts the things that people hate about them and neither does PNC and neither

51:04 does Bank of America and so uh we started optimizing for terms for like

51:10 Wells Fargo checking fee because somebody would get their bank statement and they'd see a $25 fee on that

51:17 statement and they'd be like what the hell is this and so they would search what is this thing so we had a page for it we'd explain what it was we would not

51:24 disparage well as Fargo all just expl here's how you got that fee here's how you got that charge do you hate that

51:30 charge because we don't charge it we don't have that kind of a thing would

51:35 you like to maybe you should consider switching and we launched those pages I

51:41 can't remember what the total number was but just like that checking fee page U

51:47 like for that Wells Fargo I think within four days it was getting like a thousand

51:52 clicks a day 2,000 clicks a day within days like

51:59 days and those pages converted they were fantastic it actually went so well that

52:06 the legal department ended up taking them down because they were concerned about some random

52:12 lawsuit right from the banks so they actually they was too successful they got really super nervous

52:20 about it but that was that was a fantastic find because you can apply that to just about any campaign you're working on when you're going up against

52:26 somebody else whatever people hate about that company they know it but they're not optimizing for it because they're

52:32 just trying to ignore their problems and so that's an opportunity for you to build pages around that and you don't

52:38 have to disparage them at all he just explained what that issue is we worked for another fintech and they were going

52:44 head-to-head with this other uh fintech and which was error prone uh it had a

52:50 lot of errors and so we started ranking for their error codes so people like what is this error error code and then

52:56 we tell them how to solve it you know we' say like here's how you solve that error issue by the way do you hate that

53:02 error issue because we don't have it and those pages did remarkably well because you're getting people at a time where

53:07 they're pretty interested in switching you know like they're having they're having an actual issue with with your

53:15 competitor and now might be the time when they're pretty happy to pull out their wallet and uh try your tool for

53:21 you know whatever your trial period is right right let's talk about the impact of

Impact of Google's Helpful Content Update

53:27 Google helpful content update which I mean as per Google they might have reversed something but I don't believe

53:33 still so so uh of course Google helpful content when it came out in September update has cost quite a stir how do you

53:40 see these updates affecting content strategies going forward well I I don't think those

53:48 things are very algorithmic I think they're mostly manual and I think they were going after affiliate sites because

53:53 CO's been hostile towards affiliate sites and cont content sites uh for the last five six years and so I think they

54:00 just kind of had enough but one of the things that I think they're really going

54:05 after is doorway pages I got this idea from casra dash of

54:11 Searcher and you know so a doorway page is where you rank for a term best

54:17 vacuums 2024 and then somebody comes to your site and they read about all the vacuum's like okay this is the vacuum I

54:22 want and when they click they go somewhere else so you fed them into this

54:27 page by winning a term and then as soon as they want to convert or they want to do the thing that they need they have to go somewhere else in this case usually

54:34 like to Amazon right to um right to make Google hates that that's it's not the

54:41 experience they that they want it's it's bad for the user it's it's it's not the best for a lot of reasons and so I think

54:47 that's what they've been trying to eliminate so when you think about your content strategy I would try to think of

54:52 ways to make sure that I do not look like a doorway page to a bot and so you can still be have an

55:00 affiliate site and you can still do all of those ranking techniques because the the techniques themselves the rank didn't change it's just they're really

55:07 focusing in on these types of sites and so I would do everything that I can and I would get creative so that you do not

55:14 look like a doorway page or a site that's filled with doorway pages and that's where my content strategy would

55:21 change is that I just don't want to look like that but otherwise just about everything else you're doing

55:26 from them still works still works today so what would you call wire cutter then

55:33 I'm sorry what would you call wire cutter New York Times site for the affiliate so they have wire cutter

55:40 right yeah for the websites which big big publication

55:45 house has affiliate websites running and rank so those still qualifies as a

55:51 doorway page but I think Google still ranks them yeah not all of them got hit so what I would do is I'd look and see what

55:57 they're doing how are they handling their links how are they how are they set up and then that's probably what I

56:03 would emulate uh and uh are pillar pages and other long form content still as

Relevance of Pillar Pages and Long-Form Content

56:10 relevant or is there a shift towards uh different content formats um it's not an arms race and

56:18 this stuff like pillar cond of like or like Skyscraper Pages or something like that right those worked for a

56:24 minute but okay what happens is that people get off track you know you can

56:30 only write so much and stay on on point what happens is when you look at centerpiece annotation if you have any

56:37 portions of the page that are not on point Google will then start to Discount that page and so the more that you have

56:44 that's off point the more the page is discounted and so if you've got a pretty long you know when most of the pages

56:52 that are ranking for term have you know, 1500 words and you come in with 10,000 words that's not a win you know because you're

56:58 probably going to get off track real quick and your page is going to get discounted by Google so what you want to

57:05 do is you want to see what what Google's ranking the type of site that Google's expecting and that's what you want to

57:11 give Google you know so if if the competitors have about 1,500 words and you want about 1500 words so what you

57:17 you don't want to go in for some massive you know 5,000 word page when everybody else is only doing,

57:23 1500 so the role of backlinks of of course we both know backlinks still work and I don't believe in any real any near

Importance of Backlinks in SEO

57:31 future they are not not going to be a ranking Factor so how crucial are

57:37 backlinks in today's Su landscape especially after Google recent updates I mean I know the answer but I still have

57:43 to ask I I don't think anything changed in terms of how effective or not effective that they are and so if you

57:49 have techniques do you know the work they still work and I obviously lean towards content first

57:56 uh just to get that content out there to build that you know Authority that we talked about before but then for sure

58:02 you're going to need to have a plan for how you're going to get external signals and that's where backlinks will come in

58:08 so yeah all the same still the same okay and uhh what is your take on pbn

58:16 now just as with backlinks all that still works too I mean Google really doesn't like pbn so use at your own risk

58:24 but yeah those links are still still effective okay and are there any

58:29 specific strategies you recommend for acquiring high quality back Lings no I

SEO Best Practices for Success

58:36 mean uh obviously manual Outreach is probably

58:41 going to give you the highest quality but that's also the most time intensive and um uh the more expensive way to do

58:49 things but I don't I don't have any super awesome tips on they're much better backlink Builders than I am

58:56 okay and uh can you share some of your favorite SE bre best practices that have

59:02 proven effective uh overtip well just on what we've talked about that like you want to consistently

59:09 nail your on page you know that's step one and you can also out research your competitors a

59:16 lot if if you've seen my my white hat course through like using Avalanche theory that goes a long way that does

59:23 great you know that can uh that consist stantly works every time you know like

59:29 it it always works and especially when you add in the way that I do the

59:34 research and then the way that we're doing like the inter internal linking it's just an effective way to get things going and then add in your and it's

59:42 always it's also compatible with any strategy that you like so I that I

59:47 consistently turn to that because I know almost always you can out research your competitors uh even in saturated spaces

59:54 there's opportunity to out research it's just takes time it takes Ingenuity it

59:59 takes creativity but if you give it time it'll come to you and you cannot research them you can out content them

1:00:06 you can be more specific with your internal links and then from there add on any other strategies that you like

1:00:12 and I think all that's going to be very effective okay and uh how do you stay

Staying Updated on SEO Trends

1:00:18 updated on the latest Su gorm changes industry news

1:00:24 besides I read Patel's blog they do a great

1:00:33 job he's gonna be a guest soon on my podcast so but right no matter how much

1:00:38 you say anything the guy still ranks and he does still a good job when it you can't you know the the the news Roundup

1:00:45 that they do is great it's really good and they put out videos on um you know

1:00:51 what's hot like what people are talking about so you know again you might

1:00:56 disagree with how with the approach but you can't argue with the hustle and the the content that he puts out is

1:01:02 beautiful and it's amazing put a lot of the most the most professional out there for sure but then

1:01:09 yeah the news round up the news Roundup that he does is great I'm on I'm on the I'm on the the mailing list it's the

1:01:15 news comes to me it's great okay okay uh just going to quickly

Personal Interests in SEO

1:01:20 wrap with few more questions I we crossed one hour mark so I'll just take few more minutes uh outside outside of

1:01:27 SEO what are some of your personal interest or hobbies that helps you stay creative and Innovative in your

1:01:32 professional work I uh I read and I watch Mysteries I

1:01:39 love it like garbage ones not good ones I remember you like history too and

1:01:47 you read a lot of history as well you quote a lot I do read a lot of history I do read a lot of history

1:01:53 um well I just picked up a new book I can't remember what I got it's really good no it's not coming to me but yeah

1:02:01 but in my free time though I'm watching like BBC crime drama like or you know

1:02:06 like but the ones that like where murder's hilarious like where like the detective has something weird about him

1:02:12 and uh like a quirky way that he solves crime or something

1:02:17 okay so that keep it keeps me sane keeps my brain from going going insane right

1:02:24 what tips would you offer to entrepreneurs who struggle with find this balance I mean oh I need help with

1:02:33 it I work every day I work every day so I I need help with that balance for

1:02:39 sure okay and uh final thoughts and advice uh looking back at your career

Final Thoughts and SEO Advice

1:02:44 what's one piece of advice you wish you had received early in your journey

1:02:51 um uh well I'll tell you what

1:02:56 tight Sops go a long way yeah like I would get i' nail I

1:03:03 would nail down the Sops and I'd be pretty diligent on that and that's gonna save you a lot of time money energy it's

1:03:10 gonna make you more successful so yes get the Sops and I will I will add Loom into it without loom I believe sop still

1:03:17 Loom is great Loom So within the Sops there's always a loom right so you've

1:03:22 got the step by step but they really have to be step by step in a way that you know uh a cat can follow them you

1:03:30 know a well-trained cat could do it and people always say like oh but there's so much to it like you have to make so many

1:03:36 decisions no you don't any decision that you have to make you you know you can Fork the the uh the SOP but it's usually

1:03:44 an A or a B everyone kind of feels like I can do an sop until like it's just my special magic that can make SEO happen

1:03:51 and that is not true there are only so many decisions that you would make and really what it is is just you haven't

1:03:58 figured out yourself you know if you can't do an sop just means you just haven't figured it out but everything

1:04:04 should have an sop that's very easy to follow right right now of course you've

Public Speaking Tips for SEO Experts

1:04:10 been a speaker at many SEO conferences and digital marketing conferences what is one piece of advice you find yourself

1:04:16 giving repeatedly to both new and experienced suus like conference wise like what

1:04:23 people are asking yeah when people come to you you end up giving the same advice repeatedly

1:04:29 [Music] uh I don't know a lot a lot of people do ask like

1:04:35 um like uh they'll ask about that they're scared of public speaking you know they ask if

1:04:41 I'm and I say do you get scared when you get on stage or surely you don't get I get scared every time every time I get

1:04:49 butterflies I get really nervous about five minutes before I get on stage I hate myself I'm like what are you doing

1:04:55 you know you could be sitting right there without a care in the world L is like but no you

1:05:01 think everyone wants to listen to Kyle you don't get on stage I can't stand it but it is it is a learned skill though

1:05:09 like people might say like oh I'm not a good public speaker you can become one you can definitely learn how to do that sko and you don't have to be on stage

1:05:15 either but just being a a presenter for you know present like you know a monthly

1:05:21 report for your clients is a good skill to have and that's that's in my mind they're basically the same thing getting

1:05:28 on stage and doing that kind of and doing a presentation there and doing a presentation showing why you why you

1:05:33 should keep your job you know that's that that's more high pressure to me than than getting on stage those are

1:05:40 presentation skills all of those all of that is learnable you can practice that and you can you can do it so I would

1:05:46 recommend that'd be a piece of advice get good at that uh any favorite books you would

Recommended Books for SEO Professionals

1:05:53 like to recommend to our listeners I really like the algebra of Happiness by Scott Galloway it the gets

1:06:02 into how can you strive to be a high income earner and have a very successful business and also live a good life and

1:06:11 uh I think there's a lot of great a lot of great knowledge in there um if you're looking at getting into the SAS game

1:06:16 which I recommend that's pretty lucrative I would read lost and founder by Rand fishkin he gets into a lot of

1:06:23 how he got voted out of his own company and some mistakes he made and kind of

1:06:28 gives a small Peak into the to the VC world and I read that book not too long

1:06:35 after I started pop and I can tell you every year when we talk to a VC company

1:06:40 it's all the same it's all it's all the exact same thing that he went through and that you know we talk to VC guys

1:06:47 every year it's all all the same those are two good books okay okay uh thank

Outro

1:06:53 you Kyle for sharing your insights and experience with us today and of course it's been a having you on the show for

1:07:00 our listeners who want to learn more about Kyle's work be sure to check out page optimizer pro and his course is at

1:07:06 internet marketing gold and also keep watching for the Black Friday deal if that comes

1:07:12 through and uh that's right and that concludes this episode of the agency inside the podcast be sure to subscribe

1:07:20 for more insights into the world of digital marketing and Su until next time cheers