Podcast With Sarah Pokorna

Psychology Meets SEO: The Secret to Better Conversions, Sarah Pokorna

Show Notes

Can psychology be the secret weapon to transform your SEO strategy? In this must-watch episode of the Agency Insider Show, we explore how understanding human behavior can help you rank your website number 1, drive more organic traffic, and achieve a #1 ranking on search engines.

Join Navneet Kaushal and SEO expert Sarah Pokorna as they uncover the powerful connection between psychology and SEO. Learn the step-by-step guide to leveraging cognitive biases, psychomarketing tactics, and user-centric strategies to improve your search engine rankings. Whether you're new to SEO or a seasoned marketer, this video is packed with actionable insights to help you optimize like never before.

We dive into cutting-edge techniques for tailoring content to different mindsets, the role of cultural identity in global campaigns, and the ethical implications of AI in SEO. Wondering how to align your strategies with Google's focus on helpful content or how to make your WordPress SEO guide stand out? We've got you covered!

Ready to stay ahead of the curve and future-proof your SEO strategy? Watch now to uncover the tools and tactics that will set you apart from the competition. Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more powerful SEO strategies!

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro

00:44 - How Did Sarah Transition from Traditional Marketing to SEO?

04:15 - In What Ways Does Sarah's Psychology Background Influence Her SEO Approach?

06:37 - What’s the Difference Between Psychomarketing and Neuromarketing?

07:44 - How Do Cognitive Biases Affect User Behavior?

10:31 - How Can We Tailor Content for Different Mindsets?

12:14 - What Role Does Psychology Play in SEO?

13:43 - How Do Psychological Principles Shape Consumer Decision Making?

15:08 - What is Dark Psychology in Marketing?

17:30 - What Are Manipulative Marketing Tactics to Avoid?

18:36 - How Do Vanity Metrics Compare to User-Centric SEO?

20:26 - How Can We Align SEO Efforts with User Intent?

22:11 - What’s the First Step to Making Your Strategy More User-Centric?

23:41 - What Should You Know About International SEO?

25:54 - How Does Cultural Identity Impact Marketing Strategies?

27:40 - What is Confirmation Bias and Its Implications?

29:53 - How Does AI-Generated Content Affect SEO?

31:53 - What Are the Key Concepts in Psychomarketing?

33:45 - What Does the Future of SEO Look Like?

38:50 - How Does Your Passion for Music Influence Your Marketing Approach?

39:46 - What Book Would You Recommend for Marketers?

40:23 - What Advice Would You Give Your Younger Self in Marketing?

41:56 - Rapid Fire Round

42:50 - Where Can You Find Sarah Online?

43:50 - Outro

Transcript

Intro

0:00 welcome to the agency Insider show the podcast where we dive deep into the world of digital marketing agency growth

0:07 and everything in between I'm your host nnit kosel and today we have a truly special guest with us she's an expert in

0:13 SEO digital marketing strategy and the psychology behind what people makes click convert and engage she has years

0:21 of experience blending psychology with SEO to drive rear results [Applause]

0:32 [Music] please welcome to the show Sara poor hi

0:41 thank you very much for having me yeah so before we dive into the SEO and

How Did Sarah Transition from Traditional Marketing to SEO?

0:46 marketing psychology let's talk about your journey how did you transition from traditional marketing into the world of

0:53 SEO yeah so it was quite a funny story actually so I worked in marketing

0:59 department at a company about what 12 years ago um and they were doing a new

1:06 website and they hired an SEO agency to you know help them out but I don't know what happened but basically the SEO

1:12 agency quit and my boss at the time he was like okay you're going to do the SEO

1:17 now and I had no idea how to do SEO I knew absolutely nothing so that kind of

1:23 started my journey on I had to learn and I had to learn quick and basically playing around with that website and

1:29 learning in everything that's kind of how it all started really well that's interesting now uh uh

1:38 how did the psychology comes into the picture here again bit of a Funny Story with that one

1:45 um but when I was in my mid-20s I decided that you know maybe I didn't

1:50 want to work in marketing the rest of my life and decided I wanted to be a clinical psychologist as you do um so I

1:56 went back to UNI um to do a degree in Psychology and then kind of halfway

2:02 through that I was like actually you know marketing and psychology do have a lot in common maybe I could you know

2:08 combine both worlds and somehow I'm not a clinical psychologist I'm still in

2:15 marketing okay so that's interesting I'm sure because I I I mean you are the first one who I find with such a unique

2:22 background we all started with one or the other accidental accidentally into the SE nobody came into by Design but is

2:30 I mean yours qualifications are quite different yeah it's funny how that happens I think the only people who I

2:38 think decide that they want to be an SEO with like our kids because I I've heard my son Mom I'm gonna be an SEO

2:46 too more of an AIU they're going to be

2:51 probably all right now uh you also in uh uh some of your talks you mentioned

2:58 having a crisis of confidence in marketing before returning to study psychology so is that what you were

3:05 talking about the crisis yeah I would say it was it was

3:11 basically it w I don't even know how to explain it but you know when you when you work for big corporations and when

3:17 you get pretty high up and you don't really have anywhere higher to go you realize you sit back and think oh my

3:23 gosh like am I going to spend the rest of my life you know working my butt off so that I can make bigger companies even

3:28 more money and not you know it's not the most rewarding thing um in the world so

3:34 I was like I can't really see myself doing this until I retire so I'd prefer to do something more rewarding and maybe

3:40 you know as I said umy psychology or something you know for

3:47 me that I'm passionate about um but now I've that takes like in Ireland it takes

3:54 at least six years to become a clinical psychologist and you have to do lots of unpaid work in order to do it and like

4:00 um as a mom and the only bread winner in the house I don't I don't have the resources to you know quit my job and

4:05 work for free so had to rethink a little bit um but yeah now I'm quite happy with

4:10 the PA I ended up on okay and uh so how has your

In What Ways Does Sarah's Psychology Background Influence Her SEO Approach?

4:16 background in Psychology influences your approach to SEO and digital marketing

4:22 strategies I think quite a lot I think it's probably one of the main things that I think about um when it comes to

4:28 strategies and stuff like that because at the end of the day the people that you need to I don't want to say

4:33 manipulate but the people that you need to get to do what you want are people and they all think in the same irrational kind of way um so you really

4:41 have to understand what you know what is going on inside their brains in order to get them to do do what you want and make

4:48 conversions and come to your website and you know buy your products and everything um so I try to use psychology

4:56 at kind of every single stage even if it's you know just thinking about the layout thinking about ux thinking about

5:02 you know what words to use on a page how to phrase even things like titles descriptions you know everything comes

5:07 into it okay and uh you are now the

5:13 co-founder of neuro divery in SEO so so can you tell us more about this

5:20 initiative and what whatever all is it yeah so it's basically a group um a

5:26 community group for people who identify as neurod divergent um who work in SEO

5:31 and there are quite a lot of neurod Divergent marketers out there i' say you know the majority of us almost are um

5:40 but um we set I set up the group with the co-founder Jack um because we

5:45 decided or we realized that you know there wasn't really anywhere for people like us with ADHD or Autism or you know

5:52 all of the different conditions um to actually just you know have a safe space

5:58 and um be ourselves and you know talk about the problems that we face in the workplace

6:04 because it's not it's not easy um sometimes so we founded that and it just kind of went from there you know it

6:12 became really popular really quickly so I'm thrilled that you know we been able to have you know hundreds of members

6:18 from all around the world um join and just you know meet meet each other okay

6:24 that's a good initiative actually we never heard that there would a group like that so yes that's to you uh now uh

6:35 so let's talk a little bit more about the psychology of SEO uh you have often

What’s the Difference Between Psychomarketing and Neuromarketing?

6:41 in in fact in one of your interviews you talked about psycho marketing and how it differs from neurom marketing so can you

6:48 break it down for our listeners yeah so lots of people have heard of neuro marketing and people assume that because

6:55 it's got the word nuro in it's kind of like marketing psychology um there quite a big difference between the two because

7:01 neuromarketing uses things like you know neuroimaging techniques and stuff to actually research you know how people

7:07 react to different things you know you can use um MRI scans you can you know

7:13 actually study study people's brains and stuff whereas psycho marketing is more

7:18 the actual psychology theories um that you use rather than you know actual

7:24 equipment I would say it that's probably the easiest way to put it um or to imagine it um um because in Psycho

7:31 marketing we use things like social psychology and understanding how groups of people behave and um basically adapt

7:38 those sort of things okay you you also spoken about

How Do Cognitive Biases Affect User Behavior?

7:45 cognitive biases and how they influence user Behavior so can you share some real

7:51 world examples of how marketers can leverage biases like negative bias or uh

7:57 confirmation bias in SE yeah um basically everybody has their

8:03 own biases um as much as You' like to think that you don't everybody is biased even no matter how much you understand

8:09 it there's hundreds of you know cognitive biases um out there but you can you you can use these um sometimes

8:16 to your advantage some of them like confirmation bias I think you just really need to kind of understand how it

8:21 works rather than hacking it per se um whereas you can use things like

8:27 availability bias um to make sure that you know you know in eshops when they're

8:34 like um oh come on you need to go and get this because there's only two left or something like that you can you can

8:40 play on people's I wouldn't say feelings but um on those sort of biases um confirmation

8:49 bias is a bit of a difficult one because I would say it's more problematic it's

8:55 where people um basically people don't want to sorry can I

9:01 st um is basically where people um people don't like information that um

9:09 doesn't um confirm their existing beliefs so people go out of their way to

9:15 find information that actually backs up their opinion even if their opinion is wrong so I did some research with the

9:21 BBC on this about the kind of things that people are searching for around the US elections and we found that because

9:28 of the way Google works Google is so intent on giving people the information

9:35 the right answer for what they're searching for um what they're doing is instead of like feeding people you know

9:41 correct content they're actually giving people the answers to the questions that they want and therefore when it comes to

9:47 things like elections and people making you know um an informed decision on what

9:52 they want to do what actions they want to take if somebody's you know a good choice or a bad choice um it makes it

9:58 very diff ult to get that information kind of off Google so I think it's something that seos need to be aware of

10:04 because at the end of the day we are the ones who are optimizing for different Search terms and if we're optimizing for

10:12 things that actually could be construed as misinformation fake news that kind of thing you

10:17 know I think we do have a bit of a moral obligation to do it properly rather than

10:24 optimizing just because we want to rank for that keyword if that makes sense yeah yeah right now you uh also

How Can We Tailor Content for Different Mindsets?

10:32 highlighted how people with different mindsets fixed versus growth respond differently to marketing messages now

10:39 how should brand tailor their content for these different mindsets yeah I think what you need to

10:45 do at the beginning is find out kind of who your target audience are from kind of like um a psychographic perspective

10:52 so um like demographic but you know um

10:57 Quality um different brands kind of attract different types of people so you've got people you've got luxury

11:03 Brands and they're very very you know targeted towards um fixed mindset people

11:09 because fixed mindset people tend to use you know um things belongings um as kind

11:16 of like a status symbol and they want to show off that they belong to part of a group and you know for example if you

11:21 take a BMW as a car so they want to show that they're part of a group they want to you know identify as that they want

11:28 to show off that they've got status whereas people with a gross mindset are less concerned about kind of things like

11:34 luxury goods and they're willing to put the work in to actually you know improve their skills rather than buying something that makes them look um makes

11:42 it look like they're already at the top of the game if that makes sense so you've got things for example like

11:49 joingo that would be a very good um way of marketing to for example growth mindset people and having content and um

11:57 campaigns that are geared up for if you put the work in you'll be able to achieve XY Z whereas you put your luxury

12:04 Brands where it is if you buy our product people will think you are XY Z

12:09 and you would have made it because of our product okay now uh uh Su is often seen

What Role Does Psychology Play in SEO?

12:17 as technical keywords backlink algorithm but you emphasize psychology role in ranking and conversions why do you think

12:25 uh most Su you overlooks this aspect uh see this as a massive problem

12:30 within the industry because most people as you said most people tend to think about you know technical stuff they tend

12:36 to you know think um even when it comes when it comes to content that you know

12:41 cont you just write write some words choose some keywords and that's it whereas it's great you know ranking it's

12:50 great putting um putting content on a page but if people actually don't convert and people don't get what they

12:56 want you know what's point in what's the point in doing it at the end of the day

13:02 I think we have a bit of a problem in the industry that we rely too much on a lot of metrics so we measure

13:08 lots of different things that actually aren't really aren't don't really make you

13:16 successful or don't make the company successful whereas at the end of the day business owners people are actually paying for the SEO they want sales they

13:22 want conversions they want people they they don't they don't really care about things like average position or you know

13:29 if your keywords are gone up by one place um or something so yeah

13:34 understanding why people do what they do it can it can really help take your campaigns to the next

13:40 level okay now uh just so so how psychological PR principles influence

How Do Psychological Principles Shape Consumer Decision Making?

13:47 consumer decision making in uh digital marketing that is a massive question

13:54 because there are so many different ways depending um how you want to look at it

14:01 one of my favorite um psychological theories is social identity Theory and

14:07 that basically means that um people have their own social identities and they

14:13 identify as part of a group um and being part of that group gives them a sense of

14:18 worth and if somebody is different from them um from from that group

14:24 um uh makes people feel uncomfortable and um using this you can understand why

14:31 people want to belong to parts of groups why people want to you know use your products to belong part of this um you

14:39 know fit in be part of this group get their sense of self worth and if you can kind of use theories like this um you're

14:47 able to understand what motivates people what gets people to buy and you know how you can actually Implement that into

14:52 your strategies in your content in your plans just to kind of like I don't like the use the word hacking but you know

15:00 hack what they're thinking basically okay now uh you also mentioned

What is Dark Psychology in Marketing?

15:09 a bit about dark psychology so uh what is dark dark psychology in marketing and

15:16 how do Brands intentionally or unintentionally use it okay so this is

15:23 something that Brands intentionally use you don't like to think it's there but it's there unfortunately and the biggest

15:29 brands out there Do It um so a lot of the big Brands um you know use um

15:34 consumer psychologists and I think the best one to explain is probably if

15:40 you've heard of the Cambridge analytica um Scandal where basically

15:46 um the company was accused of um basically

15:51 targeting people and swaying elections um using the type of messaging that they

15:57 use um so when you go on to things like social media um you often see things

16:02 like quizzes that are like oh what's your type of Disney Princess um and so on well those quizzes are actually based

16:09 on um personality um quizzes that we use in Psychology to determine people's um

16:15 personality types and using that they can paint a picture of if you come and wa if you you know score higher on

16:20 things like neuroticism if you're more open to experiences that kind of thing um and using the other data that you

16:26 have they can use this to build a profile of you know um maybe voter profiles and stuff like that um and then

16:35 once they've got this information about you and once they've kind of sold your data on to whoever's um whoever's buying

16:43 marketers can then use this data to come up with really really highly targeted um

16:49 campaigns that literally play on people's weaknesses so for example like in the case of Elections you had for

16:56 example um people um or marketers creating campaigns that specifically you

17:01 know targeted um you know people's fears of immigration um and basically just try to

17:07 provide people that way um so you really do have to be careful because whenever

17:14 you you do these little like quizzes and stuff they get access to the whole of your data they access to you know your

17:22 personality type um and then that can be used against you so yeah um dark psychology is kind of scary it's

17:29 fascinating um but yeah just know that it's there and there is also something

What Are Manipulative Marketing Tactics to Avoid?

17:36 called as manipulative marketing tactics right so what would be the examples uh

17:41 and uh what the there could be an impact on consumer trust for

17:46 those oh there's so many different things that people can use to kind of manipulate buyers into buying stuff and

17:52 you see it all the time I think it's something that you know you kind of have to be aware of in order to see it um I

17:59 know that I'm allergic to different advertisements and you know I hardly use social media because I can't actually

18:05 look at it because I'm like I know what they're doing and you know they're trying to sell me this by using this technique by trying to you know instill

18:12 fear of the unknown in me or something like that um so yeah again not something

18:19 that you can easily go through and talk about all the different techniques but if you see kind of all of these Scare

18:25 Tactics and stuff like that that those are mark is you know doing doing their

18:31 job probably in the most not in the most moral way okay now let's talk about

How Do Vanity Metrics Compare to User-Centric SEO?

18:36 little bit about user Centric SE versus vity Matrix so in one of your recent uh

18:41 YouTube podcast uh you mentioned how brand focuses too much on vity Matrix and automation instead of user

18:49 experience now uh why do you think this happens and how can marketers shift their

18:55 focus I think it happens for a number of reasons so I used work for um an SEO

19:00 tour um and something that I realized there is that in the SEO Tool World um a

19:08 lot of tools kind of sell metrics that are actually not useful at all um but

19:13 people think that they want them so they they give it to people um and that's one

19:20 of the reasons like I don't think it helps I think people rely too much on you know metrics from tools you know

19:26 like when I when I worked in intern SEO people were say I have an 80% International SEO score I'm doing

19:32 amazing I was like but your pages aren't indexed on by do so actually you're getting zero um

19:39 so people being fed the wrong metrics and you know wrong metrics being created

19:44 just to sell um tools and I think as well you know

19:50 unfortunately in the SEO world we all we all know this that um there are some seos who are better than others and I

19:57 think PE like SEO buyers love a good buzzword and a lot of people rely on

20:02 these buzzwords to sell their services and try and justify you know the spend or the results that they're getting when

20:07 actually they're not really getting any meaningful results that anybody who's worth their you

20:13 know anyone who's a good SEO will know how to report on these metrics you know

20:19 and make them meaningful rather than just some surface level stuff that doesn't make any

20:25 difference right now uh with uh Google

How Can We Align SEO Efforts with User Intent?

20:30 increasingly emphasizing on helpful content and of course user first experience what are some of the

20:35 strategies agency can use to align their Su efforts with the real user

20:40 intent factchecking this is something that is not done nearly enough so like we hear

20:47 people talking about um factchecking oh sorry um helpful content we hear people

20:52 talking about you have to have expertise and everything but actually behind the scenes people are just you know they're

20:57 giving the content sent to writers um who don't know for example psychology it

21:03 would be like giving me something to write on you know brain surgery or fishing or something that I have no idea

21:08 about just because I'm a concentrator um so like I I really think that we have a

21:16 big problem that you know it can't be helpful it can't be correct um if it's not correct and Studies have shown that

21:23 for example out of um you know over two billion pages of iCal content on the

21:29 internet over 60% is incorrect and that stuff is out there giving people information so yeah it may you know meet

21:37 all of Google's eat guidelines but you need to think of the dangers of people actually following

21:43 that advice and there have been people who have actually you know died in one case where somebody a woman killed her

21:48 parents by accident by giving them the wrong medication because they um followed advice online um and the

21:55 information was incorrect but you know it ranked highly on Google

22:01 okay and uh first step to making their uh strategy mode user

22:07 Centric I'm sorry can you repeat it phrase for a minute yeah sure sure so if

What’s the First Step to Making Your Strategy More User-Centric?

22:13 an agency is uh too reliant on an Automation and Technical SEO what's the

22:18 first step to making their strategy more user Centric I think the first place that I

22:24 like to start is Audits and I think when it comes to audits you need to take a

22:30 deeper look than just the technical side of things you need to look at the content you need to look at analytics you need to use data um to find out you

22:37 know what's working what's not working if you have a page that's ranking really well but not converting why is that you

22:43 need to speak to users um you need to speak to your target audience as well to find out you know why they don't like

22:50 pages and something that stuck with me from my International SEO days is you

22:56 need to look at localization you need to make sure that you know is it suitable for the Target country is the language

23:01 okay is it you know could the translation be too bad could um it just not be cultural culturally relevant you

23:07 need to look at all of these different things um in order to work as like

23:13 something that I see a lot is that people go out with the same content for example for the UK and Ireland we're two

23:18 different countries we have two different cultures and I've often told companies you know

23:24 do not have a UK phone number if you're trying to sell your office um or get people to call your office in dou and

23:30 people are not going to do it um so it's little things like that and like even just like tiny different words words big

23:38 difference okay now uh let's you talk a little bit about International ASU so in

What Should You Know About International SEO?

23:45 your uh you were recently working with Dr and metrics right yes so so uh in

23:51 your past experience as Dragon Matrix what are some common misconceptions about International Su that you have

23:57 encountered oh gosh there are so many I could be here forever um I think the biggest

24:04 misconception is that people tend to think oh I'm just going to translate my website I know it'll be grand um

24:12 whereas you most people spend like thousands on strategies in the Home

24:17 Market and then think if they translate some of the blog posts into a different language their SEO is going to be ranking in a different country that's

24:24 not going to happen they need to do a diff a strategy they need to do competitor analysis they need to

24:29 basically need to put the same amount of work into the SEO in different countries than they do um as they do in the Home

24:38 Market because you know different markets have different preferences so in Japan for example you need to have um

24:46 comparison um articles a lot of people in Europe feel uncomfortable about that because they're like why would I mention

24:51 my competitors on um on my blog but you know that's what Japanese people want that's what they used to um you need to

24:58 create those sort of things you need to look if you know are your products even suitable um to sell like um a silly

25:07 little thing here is in um we have tesos I live in the Czech Republic and bedding

25:13 is always on sale here because nobody buys it because we have different pillowcase sizes to what they do in the

25:19 UK so nobody buys it because we can't put it on our pillows um and yeah there

25:25 are just so many so many little things that people often forget and you know even different search engines people

25:30 forget that you know you don't want to optimize for Google in China um people

25:35 also often forget about you know indexing so I've seen people spend thousands and thousands on having a new

25:43 Chinese website made and translating all of their content but none of it was indexed on BYU because they didn't have

25:49 any of the you know requirements um for China okay now you you also discussed

How Does Cultural Identity Impact Marketing Strategies?

25:57 about the importance of understanding cultural identity in marketing campaigns so can you share an example of how this

26:03 knowledge can make or break a campaign yeah

26:09 so sometimes it takes just a little thing to like kind of become a cultural fuxa um I can give you one example in

26:16 Northern Ireland um from the company orange so lots of people know the

26:22 company orange especially in different places in the UK um and their slogan is the future's bright the future's Orange

26:29 that advertising c campaign came out in 1997 or something like that and it's

26:35 still a running joke um today because to Northern Irish is it means the future's

26:41 bright the future's Protestant um and anyone who's aware of the um situation

26:47 in Northern Ireland will realize that you know that's probably not a good look um to go for if you don't want to

26:53 alienate half the population um so even things like colors can offend people um

27:01 or make your brand look like they haven't done a research at all um and

27:06 even you know I've had people reach out and say I want to do XYZ in the Czech

27:11 Republic in Poland can you help me do it and I was like yeah but people don't buy ride on lawnmowers because most people

27:17 in prag live in Flats so nobody's going to have a ride on lawn mower in their flat and they like oh but I wanted to sell to you know the average Prague

27:24 person I was like no no can happen so you know

27:29 speaking to somebody in that country rather than going ahead um and just doing it please do

27:37 it okay you also Point pointed out that Google algorithm sometimes fuel

What is Confirmation Bias and Its Implications?

27:42 misinformation due to confirmation Vice how big of a problem do you think this is and should Su take responsibility for

27:50 combating it so I think it's really hard for seos to take responsibility because at the

27:56 end of the day it's not just seo's problems we the ones who have kind of just been thrown in the deep end um you

28:03 know when it comes to confirmation bias it's a big problem um with research that

28:09 I did it was actually pretty scary the different types of results that you got depending on if you put in for example

28:15 is Donald Trump a good president or is Donald Trump a bad president um and it would serve you completely you know

28:22 different stuff now um Google's argument is they can't be you know politically biased which is completely Fair

28:28 completely understand that um but when you've got you know for example Search terms some of the Search terms that we

28:35 saw um were actually you know fueled off misinformation um and you know people's

28:42 for example conspiracy theory blogs were WR at se results and that could lead to people going down a rabbit hole people

28:48 will share this again this all comes down to social identity Theory and people sharing these because people have

28:54 been proven to share misinformation just because it gives them a sense of self worth and they want to fit in with their

28:59 friends um so it's kind of worrying that you know search engines are not doing

29:04 more about this or don't seem to have a big understanding of this because I never tried to speak um to people about

29:10 it they're like confirmation what um so it's it's a big problem um I think as

29:19 seos we should be aware of it so that when it comes to you know optimizing keywords I know loads of people for

29:24 example like automate keyword research and then just decide to write AI articles and loads of different things

29:30 you do need to go through and think is this a good idea is this going to hurt my client's brand am I going to feel

29:35 misinformation with this um so yeah just be really careful and I always say don't

29:42 be a dick when it comes to optim um because there there are just

29:47 some things you shouldn't do so don't do it okay okay now uh AI generated content

How Does AI-Generated Content Affect SEO?

29:55 is exploding right now and of course Google is fighting against it as well

30:01 how do you see AI fitting into Su and what are the ethical concerns about around AI generated

30:07 misinformation yeah I think I think a has a lot of potential I'll be honest with you um because there's lots of

30:14 stuff that we do in SEO that is is extremely tedious and we can automate and we can improve things um and there

30:20 are some you know when I worked at Dragon metrics we worked on um a new content writer that we developed and you

30:26 know testing the AI and um you know getting that to work really well um was something that I really

30:32 enjoyed um and I can see the potential in it however we need to remember that

30:38 AI is inherently biased that there's a number of different reasons for this so for example most of the training data is

30:45 um Western so for example even you know

30:50 in Slavic countries we are not represented and it just gets worse and worse depending if you you know

30:55 different places in Asia Africa um or somewhere it's very kind of white Western um that kind of thing

31:04 also linguistically you know there is not enough training um data or AI is not

31:10 um not very well trained in different languages especially languages with you know countries with smaller populations

31:16 um so again that's an issue you can't rely on it to you know create content in every single language um you've also got

31:23 as well that you know the data that it's been trained on is can be racist it can be it can be

31:31 biased it can you can get some pretty disgusting stuff um off AI um so again

31:37 before you go and roll at AI especially in languages that you don't understand

31:43 make sure that you check it because otherwise you know it won't won't end

31:50 well okay and uh so you also mentioned the concept of

What Are the Key Concepts in Psychomarketing?

31:56 psycho Marketing in your talks how does this differ from traditional marketing approaches and how can agencies

32:02 incorporate it I think um I think to be honest like

32:08 PS psychology and marketing should be part of it should be part of marketing

32:14 um basically and if you go back in time to kind of you know like the days of things like Mad Men or olivy um they use

32:22 a lot of those Concepts and I think as marketers we've kind of lost our way in the digital age of because we're

32:28 forgetting all of these you know marketing techniques we're just relying too much on um AI whereas I think seos

32:34 of the future especially now with AI coming in you need to understand digital marketing or marketing as a whole you

32:40 need to understand the different techniques if you want to if you want to survive um over the next few years um

32:48 sorry that probably comes across it's really H yeah um so I think the best way

32:54 to start is just by being open to it a lot lot of people are not open to it a

32:59 lot of people think oh I'm just going to you know do my technical SEO and who cares about psychology um I deal with

33:06 that a lot and I'm often explaining all the time well actually this is why it's helpful um but I think you do need

33:13 somebody who actually kind of understands psychology and has actual proper qualifications in Psychology

33:19 because there is an awful lot of um rubbish on LinkedIn on the internet

33:25 people writing books about people claiming that XYZ is psychology when actually you know it's not backed up by

33:30 science so if you're going to do anything research papers study you know reputable sources use um books by people

33:38 who for example have phds in Psychology and that sort of thing

33:44 um okay now let's talk a little bit about the future of SE of course which

What Does the Future of SEO Look Like?

33:49 every year looks uncertain to everyone but yes here we are again doing suu as usual now in your opinion what are the

33:56 most significant challenges facing SE Professionals in 2025 I think there's a couple I think AI

34:05 um is going to be a challenge because of course you know the more the AI takes over them the less we need to do and

34:11 because of the reasons that I've already explained earlier um you know we need to we need to do different um we need to

34:18 make sure that you know we're harnessing AI in the correct way I think as well with um the market at the moment that

34:25 you know loads of companies are making people redundant um there's loads of cuts everywhere and unfortunately you know SEO is always the first and

34:32 marketing is always the first one to go um so I think what we need to do as well

34:38 res skill as seos learn how to do um you know traditional digital marketing learn

34:44 how to do traditional marketing because that is going to give you a Competitive Edge um when it comes to your skill set

34:51 and you know moving into a more digital marketing role um rather than focusing

34:56 purely on SEO one of the best decisions I've made so I can recommend it um and

35:03 then again yeah um I think just you know I think that's probably

35:08 it now now how do you see the integration of psychology and Su evolving in the

35:16 future I think it's going to go one of two ways I think there's always going to be the haters who are more technically

35:22 minded are just going to think NOP this is a load of rubbish um but I do hope the more that I speak about it and the

35:28 more other people start you know realizing that it works um and getting results I think people are going to

35:35 start you know coming around to the idea that maybe this is something that we should um be doing in the industry but

35:41 again it's really early days and it's not very well represented um so

35:47 hopefully things will change right now what advice would you

35:53 give to the agencies looking to stay ahead of the curve in terms of SE strategies and

35:58 tools think don't think purely technical think about the things that we've talked about in this podcast um today and don't

36:06 be afraid to reach out for help because you know you can't be a master of

36:11 everything you can't get a psychology degree in a matter of week in a week or just by reading a book you know ask

36:17 there are people out there like myself Who Um can help so make the most of it

36:24 and just be open-minded okay uh and for our listeners who are new to

36:29 marketing psychology what are some mustre book or resources you recommend so I always recommend Google Scholar I

36:37 know it's really nerdy I know it's not really most people's um idea of light

36:42 fun reading um but if you go straight to the source of the um actual studies

36:48 you'll be able to find out you know what works what doesn't work by reading up how these studies went you know that's

36:54 basically everywhere that I go and when I'm preparing for talks and stuff I normally read about that that many

37:00 research papers like 20 30 50 um research papers and then you can really

37:06 really get a good understanding and it will give you ideas of other topics to dive into and stuff like that so yeah go

37:12 there what are some quick wins Su and marketers can Implement today to apply

37:18 psychology in their campaigns yeah I think um this is where

37:23 for example like e-commerce SEO is really good for implementing psychology so take a look at some of the big eshops

37:30 so for example Sephora is really big in Europe um at the moment so you can see

37:36 what they do is when you put a product in the basket they recommend other products and stuff like that following

37:41 those little things um take a look at some of the different cognitive biases that you have um again I have some of

37:48 these um I have these in um slides I've done which you can find on my LinkedIn you get examples of even things like how

37:55 to put pricing so Apple does this really well um for example instead of putting you know the most expensive iPhone first

38:02 they always put the cheaper iPhone first they basically order their pricing so that people when people take a look at

38:07 the pricing um they're not like oh my God this is expensive I'm not going to

38:13 spend you know um so yeah basically what they do is they're careful with their pricing so that when people actually

38:18 people look at the most expensive um pricing first and they're like oh my gosh I'm not going to spend that much

38:23 money on a you know um a phone and then by the time

38:29 they get to the you know mid-range phones they're like actually this isn't too bad I think I'll buy a mid-range

38:34 phone so instead of going from the buying the cheapest they've actually gone up right to the second most

38:42 expensive exactly exactly because it seems like a good deal compared to the most expensive one that people saw first

38:48 right right right right right okay now uh you are also a musician right yep

How Does Your Passion for Music Influence Your Marketing Approach?

38:56 okay so how does do your passion for music influence your approach to marketing and creativity oh gosh um I

39:04 think just being a creative person kind of helps because it allows you to think outside the box and um you know see

39:13 things potentially a different way like I'll be honest you know traditional Irish fiddle playing has nothing to do

39:20 with marketing whatsoever um but good content for LinkedIn no I'm kidding but

39:27 um no I think just being creative you know marketing is creative creative content is create you know creating

39:34 content is creative coming coming out with different campaigns is creative and if you have that sort of you know

39:40 creativity you know it really helps now what's one book that has

What Book Would You Recommend for Marketers?

39:48 significantly impacted your professional life I would say probably one of the

39:53 first books that I've read is one that stood with me and that's confessions of an iing Man by David ogy um just because

40:01 it was you know it's so different to what we do

40:06 today of you know get an AI to write an article for us it you know explains how the thought process behind coming up

40:12 with these taglines because they they only have like a couple of sentences to make a real impact and being able to

40:18 write stuff like that it it takes skill and thought okay uh if you could give one

What Advice Would You Give Your Younger Self in Marketing?

40:25 piece of advice to your younger self just starting in the industry what would it

40:30 be don't do it no I'm kidding um no I think what I would do is

40:36 tell myself probably about imposter syndrome because I remember like it's

40:41 only just recently I've stopped worrying so much about impostor syndrome because

40:46 you know you see we have a lot of celebrities in this industry you see a

40:52 lot of people sharing their thoughts on LinkedIn you see you know loads of carousels that maybe aren't quite correct with um different pieces of

40:58 advice and when you're when you're early in your career and you're not very confident it does make

41:05 you doubt yourself a little bit especially when people um on LinkedIn write you know mean comments because

41:12 they don't agree with the way that you've done stuff even though you know it may be it may be correct so I think

41:18 you know find yourself people who support you and try not to let any of

41:23 that noise you know put you off doing what you do and you're always always going to get a mean person no matter what um industry you're in but just try

41:30 not to take it personally um and you know you'll make it you'll get

41:37 there okay so we now move to the final part of the show which is called as

41:43 rapid fire round and it's normal so yeah yes I can

41:51 so you will answer whatever first comes in your mind okay sounds dangerous what is your

Rapid Fire Round

41:59 favorite SE tool um Dragon metrics okay and after that um s bu all

42:07 right most overrated SEO tactic

42:13 overrated um key just adding keywords into a piece

42:21 of content and hoping for the best your goto productivity hack uh break things down into shorter

42:29 um into shorter you know batches that we don't get bought okay one as myth you

42:35 would like to debunk um my God there's so many of them

42:41 [Music] um the international SEO is just about translating some keywords and some

42:46 landing pages and you're good to go okay okay so with that we come to the

Where Can You Find Sarah Online?

42:52 end of the show and Sara it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the agency Insider show your insights into

42:58 the interactions of psychology and SEO are truly fascinating of course uh

43:03 before we wrap up is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners perhaps any upcoming project

43:10 or where they can follow your work yeah um so I'm mainly active on LinkedIn um

43:17 so if you want to follow me on LinkedIn um do feel free um next conference I'm

43:23 going to be at is the SEO U Mastery Summit in in um Vietnam in saong and I'm

43:30 going to be doing a master class on dark psychology

43:35 um conference right it's gonna be it's GNA be something very different to what

43:42 you'd find at traditional SEO events so I'm really looking forward to it right

Outro

43:50 okay thank you so much for joining us today and to our listeners don't forget to subscribe to the agency Insider show

43:56 for more insightful conversations with industry leaders until next time this is NAIT kosel signing off and Sara once

44:03 again thank you thank you so much for having me