Podcast With Gareth Hoyle

Master Scaling Agencies with Gareth Hoyle’s Proven Tips

Show Notes

Discover the ultimate SEO strategies for 2025 with Gareth Hoyle's expert tips to help you scale your agency and drive more organic traffic! Are you ready to rank your website number 1 and achieve long-term success in search engine rankings? In this step-by-step guide, Gareth Gareth Hoyle, managing director of Marketing Signals, shares invaluable insights on navigating the evolving world of SEO and running high-performing agencies.

From pioneering link-building techniques to adapting to Google's algorithms, Gareth reveals how to create impactful SEO strategies, build lasting client relationships, and embrace AI and automation to stay ahead in the game. Learn how to balance quality and scalability, implement a 4-day work week for your team, and fine-tune your approach to digital PR and link building for 2025.

Whether you're a beginner looking to improve your search engine rankings or an advanced marketer aiming to scale your agency, this video is packed with practical advice tailored to your needs. Want to future-proof your SEO game and rank higher on Google? Watch now and take your agency to the next level!

Subscribe for more expert insights, and let me help you achieve your #1 ranking goals!

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro

00:50 - How Marketing Signals Started: What Are Marketing Signals?

02:51 - How SEO Has Changed Over the Years: What Are the Key Changes in SEO?

07:42 - What Agencies Need to Do to Stay Competitive in SEO: How Can Agencies Remain Competitive?

09:36 - AI and Automation in SEO: How Is AI Transforming SEO Practices?

12:37 - How Agencies Can Scale Without Losing Quality: What Strategies Help Maintain Quality While Scaling?

17:09 - Link Building: What Is Effective Link Building?

21:41 - Evaluating Link Quality: How Do You Assess Link Quality?

24:38 - Digital PR: What Role Does Digital PR Play in SEO?

28:17 - Biggest Mistakes Agencies Make in Link Building: What Common Mistakes to Avoid in Link Building?

31:53 - What Red Flags to Avoid When Choosing a Link Building Partner: How to Choose the Right Link Building Partner?

34:41 - What Would Be Your Pivot Strategy If SEO Were to Die: What Is Your SEO Contingency Plan?

36:47 - How to Sell SEO Value to Clients: How to Demonstrate SEO Value to Clients?

39:40 - How Do You Structure SEO and PPC Teams: What Is the Best Team Structure for SEO and PPC?

42:31 - Best Way to Connect SEO to Revenue: How to Link SEO Efforts to Revenue Generation?

45:31 - How Can Agencies Differentiate Themselves in a Crowded SEO Market: What Strategies Help Agencies Stand Out?

49:37 - Strategic Outsourcing: How to Effectively Outsource SEO Tasks?

51:26 - Advice for Agency Owners: What Key Advice Should Agency Owners Follow?

54:34 - 4-Day Work Week: How Does a 4-Day Work Week Impact Productivity?

01:02:22 - Time Management: What Are Effective Time Management Techniques?

01:07:32 - Quickfire Questions: What Rapid-Fire Questions Should Agencies Consider?

01:09:30 - Final Advice for Agencies: What Final Tips Do You Have for Agencies?

01:10:03 - Connect with Gareth: How to Connect with Gareth?

Transcript

Intro

0:00 welcome to the Agency Insider Show where we decode the strategies and stories behind successful agencies today I'm

0:06 thrilled to host Gareth Hall managing director of marketing signals a performancedriven SEO and digital

0:11 marketing agency with nearly two decades of expertise gareth journey spans scaling agencies pioneering link

0:18 building techniques and most recently advocating for work life balance with innovations like 4day work week yes that

0:25 is correct we'll talk about SEO digital PR time management and of course how

0:30 agencies can scale while delivering results [Applause]

0:39 [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]

0:45 gareth welcome to the show thank you for having me it's a pleasure to be here uh Gareth uh you started with manual

How Marketing Signals Started: What Are Marketing Signals?

0:52 link building uh and then built marketing signals into a full service agency what was the journey like

1:00 yeah uh varied certainly wasn't uh smooth it's like very very rocky on the

1:06 way up um I started working in SEO sometime around

1:12 2007208 and I was working with small UK businesses and I found it quite

1:18 frustrating to be honest because the customers didn't understand what we were doing why we are doing it it was it was

1:24 boring me so while whilst I was at university I worked for General Electric and I was the middleman between the USA

1:32 and uh TCS based in India so as my SEO

1:38 business was growing I found that I was procuring more outsourced services from

1:43 from South Asia calling on my knowledge of how outsourcing worked and having seen the

1:50 margins dare I say that TCS were were GE were making off TCS I decided that I

1:56 would much rather supply link building services to UK agencies so I traveled to

2:03 India i met lots and lots of people some business is good many businesses bad and

2:08 I decided to create my own link building agency in partnership with a company based in Chundiga in the Punjab and that

2:16 was around 2008 maybe and we ran that business till

2:23 probably 2012 when when Penguin hit and then we had maybe 12 more months of link

2:29 removal work um but then we trans transitioned into marketing signals

2:36 because a lot of the uh agencies weren't outsourcing as much of their link building because of the potential risk

2:43 that came from from getting the links wrong so we decided we will start to manage our own client base

How SEO Has Changed Over the Years: What Are the Key Changes in SEO?

2:51 okay and uh I mean of course SEO has changed significantly and I know Penguin

2:58 everybody's approach changed but how has your approach evolved over the years specifically after Penguin

3:05 yeah i mean the pre- Penguin it was all very deliberate it was all uh social

3:12 book i mean when I when I say these things out loud now 15 years later it

3:17 just seems crazy but like the article submission sites and these website

3:23 directories where it's just links and links and links and but but it worked it

3:30 it worked amazingly well like that's why we were we were selling it we wouldn't have sold it if we didn't agree that it

3:36 worked whereas now we so at our peak I

3:42 think we had uh almost 300 staff and we were working on hundreds of websites

3:48 every month whereas now um we have around 25 27 staff and we have around 20

3:59 customers so we actually have to market our customers businesses now pre-

4:05 penguin it was just a process an SOP you could write we could just take people

4:11 off the street so to speak give them one two weeks training on how we want stuff

4:17 done then it's copy paste copy paste copy paste eight hours a day so whereas

4:24 now you know we have to speak to journalists we have to speak to influencers we have to speak to

4:29 development teams we have to speak to copyrighters internally and externally like we actually have to understand the

4:36 client's business and that tethers scale but also makes you a

4:43 better marketeteer i actually prefer it now than I think my margins were better in the old days but I actually prefer my

4:50 job now actually I really enjoy what I do whereas previously it was like being

4:56 a factory owner I guess whereas now I'm I'm a marketeteer

5:01 you're making me feel guilty because I was part of the same race well you know what we uh we we everybody

5:09 does what they need to do to clothe their family and feed their family and

5:14 and and build a house but this is this is what the process was of SEO

5:20 a long a long time ago i mean we're going back at least 13 Well it was April

5:26 the 21st uh 2012 is when Penguin Update came out right so I mean we're we're

5:32 almost 13 years ago like the I can almost not even remember these

5:39 days because what we do now is is is actually marketing like the and I know

5:46 we'll probably touch on this later on but I I literally don't believe that we make content for SEO anymore we make

5:53 content for marketing like it can be shared on social it can be ranking on Google it

6:00 can go into email newsletters like it shouldn't just be for one single track

6:06 really but I'm sure we'll go into more depth on that now just a very quick question so do you

6:12 make more money now or were you making more money then uh I mean I'm not hungry so we're doing

6:19 okay now but I think realistically we were probably making more money then because we were literally

6:28 just taking offshore labor and reselling it in the UK so we could have like five

6:34 or six western staff and 200 300 uh eastern for argument sake staff

6:43 whereas now we have uh 20 western staff and a handful of VAS

6:51 in Philippines actually so it's uh it's more enjoyable now though and we have a

6:58 different client profile we work with a lot bigger brands now whereas previously

7:03 I mean wow we used to have a website where the packages were

7:09 £149 per month £500 per month now we our minimum client

7:17 engagement is around £5,000 per month so it's very different the way that that we

7:23 actually operate as a business so I feel like although I can say that we made more money in the old days if we if we

7:32 term it that I feel like it's almost comparing an apple to an orange because

7:37 it's very different way of of working these days right right right right now

What Agencies Need to Do to Stay Competitive in SEO: How Can Agencies Remain Competitive?

7:42 now now what do you think agencies need to do to stay competitive in SEO

7:49 yeah so um one thing that's been a constant in SEO whether we're talking

7:54 2008 or we're thinking 2028 is testing like if you are you

8:02 can't test on your customers sites because that is too risky for for their business right you need to have your own

8:08 domains that that you're testing techniques on or you're testing content formats on um I think

8:16 you to succeed these days you really do need to understand your client's business like the the sectors that

8:24 they're working in even down to the level of if you're doing digital PR for

8:29 these people what is their trade press who are the influencers within their

8:34 micro niche like you really do need to have a understanding of of the the the

8:42 whole competitive landscape rather than just blindly writing 500 words

8:47 delivering 10 links like the yeah you you what is the context of the search

8:53 results page is it informational is it commercial like if there's no point well

8:59 it's very difficult to rank a commercial page for a best uhformational query so I

9:08 think yeah it's it's it's really getting under the skin of your customer's business of their

9:15 landscape and communicating this to them like if the customer feels like we often

9:22 say that we go into battle with our customers and you know would you want to

9:27 go into battle with somebody that doesn't have a map probably not so

9:33 that's that's how we see it anyway okay now AI and automation are of course

AI and Automation in SEO: How Is AI Transforming SEO Practices?

9:40 transforming the industry almost every day how do you see their roles in SEO and link building

9:47 yeah I mean I uh I embrace AI i can't I can't I can't deny it um I think that

9:54 like all tools there needs to be a competent operator that is going to get

10:01 the most out of the tool i think that uh gone are the days where you can just

10:06 blindly take chat GPT output paste into WordPress and collect your your golden

10:13 beans um but we also see it as um using

10:19 AI to crunch data modeling and have a look at which sites have we used

10:24 previously for a client does that correlate to an increase in visibility

10:29 so we can start to try and gauge the effectiveness of the link building that we're doing you could build 20 links but

10:37 17 of them may be not actually adding any value how do you know that so by by

10:42 using a sort of some custom LLMs that we've built internally to our toolkit we

10:48 can start to um try the key word to here is try try and understand which which

10:55 links are are being effective for my client's visibility um we still use chat GPT to uh structure

11:05 content so I'm quite happy to open chat GPT or Gemini there's obviously many

11:12 many windows that we can use these days and um ask it to structure an article

11:19 for me uh I was looking at I was with a a customer and friend in in California

11:26 last month and we were looking at the deep research stuff so Gemini Pro deep

11:32 research you can give it a few prompts it'll go away it will analyze 20

11:38 articles it will give you an argument for and against it then you can put this

11:43 into Notebook LM and generate a podcast of two AI characters discussing the

11:51 article that AI created i mean this

11:56 is mindblowing like I I can only imagine what we will be

12:02 discussing next year like next month never mind three or five years in the

12:09 future when my children ask me you know or I ask my children what do you want to do when you finished education

12:16 their job doesn't even exist yet right it's it's it's crazy so I think more

12:23 than anything we're just keeping an open mind and embracing the change as It punches us in the face in a on a daily

12:31 basis I suppose right now now on a

How Agencies Can Scale Without Losing Quality: What Strategies Help Maintain Quality While Scaling?

12:37 agency part many agencies struggle to scale without losing quality now what's

12:42 your advice for them yeah I mean it isn't easy um we often

12:48 have a discussion internally that if we had to double the size of our team I I think we would it would take us a long

12:55 time because we like we maintain maintain the quality of our output through the staffing and the training

13:01 and the recruitment process i think that having solid SOPs that you believe in

13:08 and that that are tried and tested so that way at least as you get more people

13:15 coming into your agency you at least have a training program that they can go through and

13:23 especially in the first three months of a new employee joining us we are constantly testing them to make sure

13:29 that they can work in our way of working so to our culture so I mean we'll talk

13:36 about the 4 day week and fully remote shortly but not everybody can do that

13:41 and I think the you need if you're good at your job

13:47 you're going to win more work like that's that I I I didn't plan to have 30

13:52 staff i was happy at 15 but because we keep doing a good job we keep getting

13:58 referrals we keep growing and what we've actually done is invested in a layer of

14:04 management that doesn't work on SEO that actually just works on business operations so making sure that everybody

14:12 has personal development plans making sure that the development plan goals

14:17 match with the business potential needs again we don't know what we're going to need like I didn't three years ago I

14:24 wasn't looking for prompt engineers now if somebody doesn't use AI

14:29 to make themselves more efficient they probably won't fit in in my business so

14:35 I think the you you have to try and mold the person into the way of

14:43 working that you like without tethering their creativity because we you know we

14:48 we are brain workers we're knowledge workers so we're not we're not drones

14:54 that are just going to go ABC but there does need to be an SOP in place to maintain that quality output

15:01 that that you need right no I completely agree the problem challenge is when the

15:07 person has worked too much manually it's it's getting hard for a person who is experienced to move to AI because their

15:15 mindset is still default gets defaulted to the old system yeah and we see it happen and

15:23 um I mean luckily in SEO a lot of

15:29 us once we get to uh leadership level we've been doing it for a few years you

15:36 already have a basic mindset of change or die because we've all lost sights to

15:42 updates we've all been uh demoralized when Google has decided it no longer

15:49 likes us so I think that if you especially at a leadership

15:55 level of a progressive agency I'm sure there are bad leaders or bad managers in in certain agencies

16:02 in my agency the leadership team are all almost coming to me saying "Oh my god

16:09 last night I was watching this YouTube video and I saw this because we we we

16:15 have to embrace the change that's coming." Or you'll be left behind like

16:21 the like even now in all of our new business proposals we spend 20% of the time talking about AI

16:29 overviews like we used to spend the time talking about featured snippets and position

16:35 zero now it's all AI overviews so I think if you're to to the listeners that

16:42 are working client side if your agency isn't talking about the

16:47 future if they're talking five years in the future that's a red flag if they're not talking about the future that's also

16:54 a red flag they should at least have like this is what is happening now this is how we're going to respond

17:00 now and then yeah if they're if they can't do that then then their skill set

17:05 will just will just die out right right now let's talk a little bit about link

Link Building: What Is Effective Link Building?

17:11 building and uh digital PR uh you have called link building a free

17:17 zone and uh what's your framework for cutting through the noise in 2025

17:24 yeah well I mean link building as for as long as I've been link building the world is full of chances like the

17:32 everybody has the magic dust that they can sprinkle on your SEO campaign that

17:38 will drive you to number one um for me link building

17:45 is just doing realworld business stuff that attracts coverage so for many many

17:53 years magazines would publish surveys that businesses have had conducted and

17:59 they would put it in the print magazine and then you would buy it from the news stand and you would read it and you

18:05 would be like oh sharing it across a coffee table digital PR is just the same but with

18:11 links like we're producing surveys that that our customers client base will be

18:17 interested to read and rather than trying to get column inches we're trying to get page

18:24 views like that is literally the only difference between the traditional way

18:31 and the digital way in terms of uh working with bloggers and influencers

18:36 because we still do a lot of manual outreach the site should be owned by a

18:45 real person the site should have all the EAT signals that Google is telling us to

18:52 look for it should be ranking so we have many we have many metrics in SEO da DR TF CF

19:01 these are all made up by third parties the the best metric that we like to look

19:08 at is site traffic so if the site is ranking on

19:14 Google and we can use Semrush we can use Hrefs to to see what the site is ranking for we can also pull that via API into

19:21 our backend system so we're not constantly opening more tabs we if that

19:28 site if Google is rewarding that site with traffic brilliant if I can produce some

19:34 content for my client and put it on a site that then becomes a reference point

19:40 for AI overviews perfect it's almost like that

19:45 site is giving my client a third-party validation in the eyes of Google and in

19:50 the eyes of the user most importantly so we could be working with a makeup brand

19:56 and we're going to look at the best eyebrow scissors i don't I don't wear

20:01 makeup but my team will know more about the searches than me if if we can't get

20:09 this if the site that we're working with isn't getting traffic already

20:16 from things about beauty then why would we really want to be working with it

20:22 because otherwise it just I'm not suggesting that that these techniques

20:28 don't work but I think they just come with bigger risk and as you start to

20:34 work with bigger brands you've got to spend a lot more time managing the risk

20:41 within your link building and a lot of the time I mean we're lucky that because

20:46 we work with larger brands from a digital PR perspective the journalists want to

20:53 feature the companies we're working with because they have credibility right like I'm not going to them and saying "Hi I'm

21:00 Gareth from Gareth's auto sales like can you feature

21:06 me in your tier one media we might be approaching them some we're a multinational car manufacturer would you

21:14 like my opinion and it it does make it easier i I I must admit like I think I

21:20 do sometimes feel for those uh digital PR execs or SEO execs that are working

21:26 with smaller brands where the expectation is still we must be in the

21:31 tier one media but it's going to you they have to fight a lot harder for their coverage that we probably did

21:39 right now uh so when it comes to link building uh how do you evaluate quality

Evaluating Link Quality: How Do You Assess Link Quality?

21:46 in links today especially with AI generated content flooding the web

21:52 yeah I mean the I'd like to hope that Google's algorithm is getting smarter

21:58 and smarter but I've been constantly disappointed by Google's algorithms for the last 16 17 years i I think that

22:07 again using our primary metric of site traffic like if the if the site that

22:15 we're trying to get a link from is only using AI generated content and it's not

22:21 been humanized there's nothing wrong with AI generated content okay if if

22:26 you've trained the GPT to produce the content of a higher quality if you're

22:33 just going to chat GPT and saying "Make write me a 500word blog post on why I should podcast for my SEO business,"

22:40 you're going to get some rubbish coming out whereas if you train the GPT to say

22:48 "My name is Navney i run a SEO agency i'm also going to start producing a

22:54 podcast called the Agency Insider Show i wish to attract these people i wish it to be produced in this tone of voice."

23:01 then you're going to start getting better quality coming out and that that will rank i I'm actually was very happy

23:10 when the helpful content update came out because it got rid of a lot of this

23:15 rubbish that had been put on the internet and I I socialize at many SEO

23:22 events in uh in Asia and I saw a lot of people doing very well for

23:28 themselves off just blindly posting AI written content i would always speak to

23:35 them and say "Guys I was here in 2012 we were just doing bookmarks and

23:41 deliberately manipulating the algorithm it won't last forever." Of course no

23:46 none of them believed me because you don't you know you you you make hay when the sun is shining uh and then it came

23:54 and you know I I have friends that lost 99% of the traffic and that traffic isn't coming back and that's because

24:00 Google can detect whether it's just AI dross or whether it's actually EAT

24:08 powered useful content that the users want i mean the front page of Google is

24:15 is Google's real estate like it's not it's not a given that you should be there it's a privilege to be there and I

24:23 think that um Google rewards your site with traffic

24:29 and that is why that will always be the primary metric for us when we're doing link building

24:36 right now let's talk a little bit about digital PR now digital PR often overlaps

Digital PR: What Role Does Digital PR Play in SEO?

24:42 the traditional outreach so what's your playbook for creating campaign that earn links and uh brand visibility

24:51 yeah so the way to think about digital PR

24:57 is you're going to juice the root so if I'm selling if I'm

25:02 selling Sorry stop my phone the way to think about digital PR is that you're

25:08 going to juice the route so you're never going to get a link to your blue jeans

25:15 page from digital PR very very very rarely will you get a link to a

25:20 commercial page in fact in the UK Reach plc who are one of the largest uh

25:27 publishers in the UK yesterday announced that they or it was

25:33 it was leaked or it was revealed that they're no longer going to link to commercial pages like the there has to

25:41 be a reason for them to link because they're not stupid they know why we're giving them all this content for

25:47 SEO so for me uh digital PR has a place

25:53 and it it it's the safest link because it's realworld business stuff like I

26:02 would the the question we we try and ask internally is would you be happy that

26:08 that content was there if there was no link and the answer should be yes because if I'm working with a fashion

26:17 brand and I get a a piece of coverage in a fashion magazine or on a fashion

26:23 website I still want that like I still want those readers

26:28 to find out about me that way i still want to with digital PR we're not just

26:34 appearing for link building we're we're appearing in all of Google's surfaces so

26:40 I might be coming up in in a Google discover i could be in Google News i could be in uh when I open a new tab on

26:49 on Chrome on my iPhone there's there's the the the market news that I'm in in

26:55 market for so again ask yourself the question why does the link does the why

27:00 does the content exist and would you be happy for it to be there if the link was missing

27:07 and if you're producing good surveys if you're producing good interesting

27:14 stories that the journalists readership will be interested in they'll include

27:19 the link for you because it makes sense for the link to exist and it'll be a lot

27:24 more authority so I think it's worth doing i I love the way you defined if if

27:30 the PR if there is will you be happy without the links i'm sure right now most of the people think digital PR is

27:36 high quality links and not high quality exposure so there's a difference oh it's

27:44 big time and I I see this all the time whenever I go to uh events once upon a

27:50 time everyone was a link builder now everybody is a digital PR but that's just people

27:57 are trying to make some money they're just trying to pay their bills and if you're a link builder and less people

28:04 are asking or if you're a link builder and everybody is saying "Do you offer digital PR?" eventually you're going to

28:10 say yes and then you're going to figure out how to do it right right right right right

Biggest Mistakes Agencies Make in Link Building: What Common Mistakes to Avoid in Link Building?

28:17 now now what are some of the biggest mistakes agency makes in link building i

28:22 know one is expecting it's all for links but what are other big mistakes agencies do according to you yeah so um if if we

28:32 stay on the focus of digital PR I think what you've got to remember is that you're you have a blogger and you have a

28:40 journalist the journalist is getting paid anyway by the publication the

28:45 blogger owns the site and will publish anything for the right amount of money

28:50 so I think that where people are just uh getting chat GP I'm picking on chat

28:58 GPT when I say chat GPT when they're using AI to uh produce 500 words press

29:04 release sending it to 5,000 journalists like we used to do for blogger

29:12 outreach the journalist isn't isn't dafted there was a

29:18 journalist in the UK who tweeted a few years ago now but he is getting one

29:24 pitch every minute like how are you going to stand out when you're getting

29:30 60 emails an hour effectively trying to sell him something so you know you've

29:37 got to really work on the titles of your emails to try and and stand out now Apple does the AI overview uh on your

29:45 phone when it's locked when the emails come through what does your pitch say

29:50 when he sees that or she sees that like you've really got to try and grab their attention i think that the AI bros

29:59 killed Haro so Harrow is gone connectively is is gone like it's it's

30:05 all just been merged into Sision now um because effectively

30:12 the latest cohort may I say of digital PR companies are treating it like

30:20 blogger outreach where you can just blindly shoot and hope that one one hits

30:25 the target whereas I would much rather have a list of 300 400 journalists

30:32 across the globe that I know talk about travel or talk about fashion and that

30:39 way when I'm pitching them my clients ideas or my own ideas because I do still

30:44 run my own website then I know that I'm going to have a higher open rate and I I

30:50 measure everything i measure open rates i measure response rates i split test titles split test uh first

30:56 paragraph and you you really do need to understand that you're you're pitching a

31:02 a human being that doesn't have to include your content like it's not a

31:09 given that they will like if you have a blogger that you know is uh loose with

31:14 publishing content you know that you can email them and PayPal them $100 and

31:19 you're probably going to get a link with a with a journalist it's it's it's the opposite like the why should they why

31:26 should they use you like you your story really needs to be compelling and you

31:32 know sometimes you have to pick up the telephone to speak to the journalist because email is too noisy maybe you

31:40 should use LinkedIn if you can get their phone number drop them a LinkedIn message or a WhatsApp message so yeah

31:47 the it's it's it's a different game from from speaking to bloggers

31:52 uh right now many agencies outsource link building due to resource constraint what

What Red Flags to Avoid When Choosing a Link Building Partner: How to Choose the Right Link Building Partner?

31:59 red flag should they avoid when choosing a partner yeah so

32:07 the link building is resourceheavy um I would say that uh off the top of my head

32:14 a couple of red flags if they're only using maybe one metric so if they're selling you uh every link will be a DA

32:23 50 plus or every link will be DR 60 plus um right so what so what if

32:33 the link is DA50 like I can show you websites that have been penalized that

32:39 still have DA50 so I would be looking at that i would be looking at if they're trying to

32:46 match the site theme to your site's theme and making sure that the the links

32:53 are valid and relevant i would be uh wanting to potentially speak to the

33:01 people that are working on the outreach campaigns like we have a head of outreach and we have an outreach team

33:06 leader in the UK and an outreach team leader in the Philippines both of these

33:11 all three of these people are available to jump on a client call because we have

33:18 nothing to hide like why wouldn't we want the client to see the people that are working on their campaigns i would

33:26 also say that um if the if the customer

33:31 or the the agency cannot provide case studies with shared URLs like I'm more

33:40 than happy to share a domain that my team has worked on because we are proud

33:46 of the backlinks that we've built whereas if the agency is not willing to

33:51 be so forthcoming that should be a very big red flag um and I think that in a way

33:58 there needs to be because anybody can pick a successful website and say that I

34:04 did the link building for this like the don't be afraid to ask for references

34:09 like we have customers that ask for customer information so they can check us out like why wouldn't why why would

34:17 you say no to that if you're doing a good job so I think the general due

34:22 diligence like you would if you were picking a lawyer or if you were picking an accountant or you were picking

34:28 anything to do with we are marketeteers are it's a professional service so the

34:34 procurement process should be as similar as it is for any other professional service

34:39 okay and uh let's talk about you know every year if people talk about SEO

What Would Be Your Pivot Strategy If SEO Were to Die: What Is Your SEO Contingency Plan?

34:45 being dead and SEO being dead now my question is if SEO were to die as some predict what would be your pivot

34:52 strategy um well I mean I'm quite lucky that I've

34:58 been doing this for a long time and uh they do say that compound interest is

35:04 one of the wonders of the world so I I think that I would not be uh going to

35:12 work in a low paid job um at the end of the day I'm a marketing

35:19 leader it just so happens that the channel that I'm that I market in is

35:24 search so we do a lot of PPC as well as SEO if search

35:30 disappeared there would still be uh a medium or a channel for customers to

35:37 find suppliers so we had class classified adverts we had the yellow

35:43 pages in the UK we had something called Loots magazine where people can buy and sell stuff sort of like manual eBay i

35:51 think that I would always be a business leader and I think that if if I could go

35:58 into any business in any sector and I think I could add value because of the

36:06 tenacity because of the multitasking doing 25 things at once

36:12 while you're pushing a ball uphill that being an SEO leader teaches you so I I I

36:18 believe that I would I would just be a business leader or probably still a marketing leader but just in a different

36:25 channel because people still need to find stuff like we're not you know we are not quite at the

36:32 noral development where I think about it and then it's on my desk so but even

36:37 then there must be influencing factors that the noral chip looks for so yeah I

36:43 think I'll always just help I'll just always be a marketing leader okay uh let's talk about a little bit

How to Sell SEO Value to Clients: How to Demonstrate SEO Value to Clients?

36:49 about SEO and uh business and selling values to clients now many agencies

36:55 owners struggle to explain SEO value to clients so what's your approach on it

37:00 yeah so different approaches based on different stakeholders and I think

37:06 that's where sometimes people get it wrong if I'm on a call with uh the head

37:13 of marketing the CEO and the SEO or the in the in-house marketing exec I've got

37:20 two members of the seauite and I've got an operator maybe the operator wants to

37:26 know that we're going to screaming frog the site we're going to do this we're going to look at schema the CEO doesn't

37:32 care how we get from A to Z A to Z like what the second slide in my

37:39 presentations when I'm pitching for new work is how much return on investment

37:46 we're going to generate for them so first slide is just the holding slide

37:51 second slide I think I can return eight pounds for every pound that you invest

37:56 with me over a two-year period that is what they're there for like the to the

38:03 CEO and even to the CMO to a certain degree right they don't care how many

38:09 words you will write they don't care how many links you will build this is

38:16 details that don't concern them maybe when you've won the work you can arrange

38:22 an onboarding call with the client's operations team then you can talk about

38:27 this really what you need to be pitching is the size of the opportunity how long is it going to take

38:35 to get to the top if the top of the top of the opportunity rather than the top

38:40 of Google because number one isn't always the goal these days and then how much resource do they need to put into

38:48 it i think if you can answer those three

38:54 questions they're still listening to you after half an hour if you spend all of

39:00 your time talking about title tags of meta descriptions and

39:06 uh time of meaningful paint or whatever the uh technical SEO term for core web

39:13 vitals is you're I don't care about them my SEO

39:20 team care about them the CEO doesn't care about them his SEO team cares about

39:25 them your job really when you're selling SEO into the client is presenting the

39:32 size of the opportunity and what it's going to cost to get there

39:38 okay now uh you often said SU and PPC should be

How Do You Structure SEO and PPC Teams: What Is the Best Team Structure for SEO and PPC?

39:44 best friends so how do you structure teams to ensure that data sharing and collaboration when it comes to SU and

39:50 PPC yeah one of one of my pet peeves of agency life is quite

39:58 often we'll do the SEO and somebody else will do the PPC or vice versa we're

40:03 doing the PPC management and another agency is doing the SEO right and the

40:09 other agency won't speak to us because they think we're going to try and steal the work like the reality is PPC and SEO

40:18 they're playing football in the same field like it's the same piece of real

40:24 estate granted PPC will uh be quicker and but more expensive um PPD has

40:33 shortterm PPC data should be informing long-term SEO strategy and if you are

40:40 managing PPC in house or you are managing it via a different agency to

40:45 your SEO agency and you're not having a monthly or at least quarterly all hands

40:51 call to share that data then you're doing it wrong if

40:57 you're not running specific retargeting campaigns to drive

41:02 my non-converting top of the funnel SEO traffic to conversion right you're doing

41:09 it wrong like the it's it's it kind of goes back to my

41:14 initial point where really we should be creating things for the purpose of marketing not for SEO not for PPC not

41:22 for social not for email everything should be coming together into one team

41:29 and that one team ideally should work coherently together because ultimately

41:35 the goal for all of us is to put more money in the virtual till of the client

41:44 and it's yeah it really annoys me when when we work with somebody and they're

41:49 like oh the PPC agency won't share the dashboards or the you know this is the

41:55 client's data if the client wishes to share that data with me so I can create more informed opinions right why

42:03 wouldn't you like we should be making collaborative looker studio dashboards that look at the blend like the blended

42:10 conversion path because a lot of the time now conversion is five or six touch

42:16 points across different channels and just telling you that you rank number one for the search term blue jeans is

42:24 not the insight that we should be selling into our clients

42:29 right now uh when pitching to seuite executives

Best Way to Connect SEO to Revenue: How to Link SEO Efforts to Revenue Generation?

42:35 what's the best way to connect SEO to revenue is what you called as I'll give you returns 8 pound to one pound or is

42:44 there another better methodology which you use yes so a lot of the time it

42:49 depends on the knowledge of the seauite so we work with a few tech companies

42:55 that have a very knowledgeable seauite and probably some of them will

43:01 know now their managers or their directors maybe less so but 10 years ago they will have known as much about SEO

43:07 as as we did 10 years ago i think that the using monetary values helps people

43:14 understand it i think that one thing that we've started doing is looking at

43:21 uh let's say you're ranking in position six and your biggest competitor is ranking in position one for a search

43:28 term and let's say that search term is searched 10,000 times per month well we

43:35 can say that in position one you will get on average 20% clickthrough in

43:40 position six you will get an average 3% clickthrough so from the 10,000

43:47 searches the person in position one is maybe getting 2,000 visits you are getting maybe 60 visits

43:57 so just try and put it into into numbers that they understand uh very

44:05 simple single data point graphs help sometimes I think in SEO we think the

44:12 more complicated the slide the more insight we're giving yes whereas really

44:18 what the the seauite want to know is I start

44:24 paying you on day one when do I get my money back like that that is literally

44:29 what they want to know so we find that yeah presenting very clear road maps uh

44:37 we create a lot of gant charts for what will be happening when so that they've got

44:42 uh micro goals so if by the end of month one we will have this done this done

44:48 this done this will mean and the the this will mean could be that we now have

44:54 solid foundations on which to grow that this could this means doesn't have to be we'll be millionaires next year it just

45:02 needs to give them a goal that they understand that progress is happening because a lot of the time they have to

45:09 report to their bosses oh I see we paid the SEO agency $15,000 this month oh

45:17 yeah yeah i know exactly what they're doing we're up to here we're expected to be here it's just communication and and

45:23 having empathy for the meetings that they have to take this data to

45:29 right now so how can agencies differentiate

How Can Agencies Differentiate Themselves in a Crowded SEO Market: What Strategies Help Agencies Stand Out?

45:35 themselves in a crowded SEO market especially in today's world well the I mean the easiest one to do is

45:42 to is to niche down so um I have good friends that run legal marketing

45:47 agencies where they're only working with lawyers and solicitors and legal software companies so I think it's

45:55 it's earlier in the podcast I mentioned that we we have to market our customers

46:00 business right so I think niching down is is something that that whilst we

46:07 don't outwardly niche down we have a lot of customers in uh consumer fashion and

46:14 makeup and beauty um so we find that when we're talking about it we can talk

46:20 in a lot more knowledgeable way because we're used to working in that industry you could even niche down in

46:28 terms of the service offering that you do so there are still digital PR agencies there are still technical SEO

46:34 agencies right there are agencies that specialize in uh SEO on the edge and

46:41 server side stuff that I don't understand so I'm not going to pretend that that this is my area of expertise

46:48 so I think that being a generalist is not going to cut the mustard really

46:53 these days um and you know the this is where the case studies come in i guess

47:00 if you've got a case study for three fashion brands on your website you're more likely to attract more fashion

47:06 brands so I think that the the answer really is just that niching part now how

47:12 does Americans I I come across a a lot of legacy SEO companies

47:18 who've been running for years how do you think niching down somebody who's run any su agency for 10 12 years how do you

47:26 that is that going to actually work for them that's up to them i mean they have to

47:33 you could argue that if you're not niching down maybe you have to pedal three times as fast to win the work

47:42 because when we take a sales approach with our agency we consider that we're

47:47 telling our agency story and our agency story is we build our own software we

47:55 build our own SOPs we have our own back office functions we have uh accessible

48:01 staff we have experience in this niche we we are doing this we are doing that

48:06 this is our core competence but we can also do this it it just makes a story a lot easier to

48:13 tell whereas if your story as an SEO agency is oh yeah we're doing what we've

48:18 been doing for the last 15 years and you know we know it works if I was working in house I'd be like do these guys not

48:25 change like are they not like adapting to the changing environment that Google

48:30 presents to us so I think that they can still make Okay another side of that coin I

48:37 like to work with people that know what they're doing so a lot of our clients have internal SEO resource a lot of our

48:46 clients have CMOs or head of marketing marketing directors that actually

48:52 understand the channel and understand SEO so you can't pull the wool over

48:59 their eyes but there will be many businesses out there that have a more simplistic seauite that you can easily

49:07 uh convince that that this is the right strategy and they wouldn't they wouldn't

49:12 know otherwise so they're they're just not they're not the businesses that will

49:17 rise to the top as in the digital era though so I I I wouldn't I would be bored

49:24 speaking to them in the sales process i I can normally tell quite quickly whether whether we would get on with a

49:30 prospect because we will test their knowledge as much as they test ours

Strategic Outsourcing: How to Effectively Outsource SEO Tasks?

49:37 okay and uh for smaller agencies managing both SEO and PPC in-house is

49:43 tough so what's your take on strategic outsourcing yeah I mean if you can't do it to the

49:50 level that you need to do it outsource it like find an expert like I'm not uh a

49:55 tax expert so I use my accountant if I find myself in legal trouble right I go

50:03 to my lawyers so if you're working in house and um the industry is shifting

50:10 very quickly or you're interested in from a PPC perspective maybe you're used

50:16 to doing the basic campaigns and now you're interested in learning about PMAX and how the black box can can help you

50:22 grow hire a consultant you don't have to hire a full agency service maybe you just

50:29 need to hire a fractional head of PPC for one day a

50:34 month to just come in and help your help skill up your team like we are always

50:39 learning in in this job and and I regularly say to my own staff there's

50:45 nothing wrong with saying I don't know because stuff changes every week in what

50:51 we're doing it would be impossible to be on top of everything but you know what

50:56 now that I understand that I need to know this for your campaign i'm going to go away i'm going to watch some YouTube

51:03 videos i'm going to read some X threads i'm going to ask a few of my industry peers and this time next week I will be

51:10 in a much better place to offer you an opinion on how I believe that this is going to affect your business that is a

51:17 legitimate answer in what we do so don't be afraid to go and hire people in to to

51:23 help you okay now uh you have built and sold agencies what's your number one

Advice for Agency Owners: What Key Advice Should Agency Owners Follow?

51:29 advice for owners aiming to scale uh sustainably

51:35 yeah so um I'm very much a big believer in big company thinking so even when

51:41 there's only five or six of you imagine what it would be like when there was 50 or 60 of you do you have the processes

51:49 do you have the journey for the staff to go through and maintain the talent get

51:56 your accountants to set up the company structure so that you can gift shares to key employees um try and remove yourself

52:04 and this is this is my biggest struggle with with agency life and it still is today try and remove yourself from the

52:11 sales process because as the business owner if you are the bottleneck like

52:19 nobody in your business should be the bottleneck for anything there should be two people that can do every job every

52:26 task should be written down or made or a loom video so that you can you can see how to do it uh the the phrase we use in

52:34 English isn't very nice but if you were hit by a bus tomorrow like you know what would happen to what would happen to

52:40 your business and if the answer is that it would go it would collapse then then

52:45 you don't really have a salailable asset right so I think keeping that big

52:50 business thinking and strategic processes and having a succession plan

52:56 from day one if you're if you're looking to exit now remember that success doesn't necessarily have to be an exit

53:03 success could be running a very lucrative lifestyle business

53:09 so don't always think that you have to to exit right now uh if you could reboot

53:16 marketing signals today what would you do differently

53:22 what would I do differently if we started again uh

53:27 if I'm honest with you not that much so I'm really happy with the sort

53:33 of clients that we attract i'm really happy with my team structure and how

53:39 I've got the layers of leadership set up i think that I would probably look at investing

53:48 in uh in a sales team earlier like I'm I'm only now even after 17 years trying

53:55 to build out a sales team um I think that I would probably have gone to get

54:01 some uh external mentoring earlier so I

54:06 don't know everything and I have non-exec directors and business mentors and and communities that I pay to be a

54:13 member of where I can b bounce ideas off people that have walked this path before

54:19 i think that if I was to start again I would probably look at getting that level of assistance from day one rather

54:26 than waiting so long before reaching out or or realizing your weakness and acting

54:32 on it okay now let's talk about the 4 day work week and productivity i saw

4-Day Work Week: How Does a 4-Day Work Week Impact Productivity?

54:38 your post which got more than half a million likes i said "What is that

54:44 real?" But it is right 100% it's real i can I think 38 million impressions we

54:52 had on that i I I I remember liking it of course when it came good right now you

55:00 introduce a 4-day work week at marketing a work week at marketing signals what was the motivation behind this

55:08 okay so um in the

55:14 1920s Henry Ford delivered the concept of the weekend so people used to work

55:21 six days a week because of mechanization and the uh factory production line henry

55:29 Ford realized that he could get the same output from his team in five days as he

55:34 could in six days by giving them an extra day off gave them more leisure time having more leisure time meant he

55:42 sold more cars because people needed to to get around now that they're not in work

55:49 that for me was the six days to the five day working week was the culmination of

55:55 the industrial revolution right we are in the beginning of the technological

56:01 res revolution where technology is making us work smarter not harder so I I

56:08 genuinely believe that I can get well I've been doing it for two years now so I know that it works i get the same

56:15 output from my team working four focused

56:22 days than many businesses from get from their team working five days where

56:28 they're not working for two hours a day like the reality of of of work is that

56:36 you will make the task fit the time scale you're given to

56:41 complete it now I think the fact that we're fully remote helps right because

56:48 as an example uh 10 minutes before we began this

56:53 podcast I went to make myself a coffee because I work from home I only had to

56:59 make one coffee so it only takes me as long as the coffee machine will will

57:05 will spit the coffee out for me if I'm working in an office and I'm sat around

57:10 a table with six or seven colleagues and somebody sees I'm gonna go and make some tea oh can you make me a cup oh can you

57:18 make all of a sudden it's taken one hour for somebody to make the drinks for the table so this lost productivity that

57:27 comes from the workplace when you start to add it up it

57:32 becomes a lot across the course of a week or a month now we looked at what we

57:40 were getting from our team on a five day week and even though they would be in

57:47 the office in the office virtual office for 40 hours right the

57:55 reality is we were only tracking 32 hours of productivity really because

58:01 people will uh get tired people will have household chores that they

58:08 must do maybe they need to go to the doctors or the dentist or

58:13 so we decided that I think it can be done in four days

58:18 but but the the sacrifice or the tradeoff is that you have to work harder

58:24 for the four days but the reward is you get an extra four days per month free

58:32 time to do what you want go volunteer create a side hustle play

58:38 PlayStation i I I don't mind i would rather they were doing something productive than playing PlayStation but

58:44 that's got nothing to do with me and the second reason why or the maybe

58:50 the business reason why we looked at implementing the 4 day week the agency landscape is uh very

58:58 competitive in terms of winning clients but also in terms of attracting and retaining talent within your agency so

59:06 we were looking at ways that we can stand out um we all get paid well anyway so it's

59:12 not like we can say have an extra few pounds have an extra few thousand dollars a year we're all paid well

59:18 because we're good at our job what we actually decided is that that to attract

59:23 the the new talent and retain our existing talent we're going to give a better balance so we don't do overtime

59:32 the it is kind of frowned upon if you're answering Slack or emails on your down

59:38 day like what you doing like if anything it makes me think that you mustn't have

59:44 been working hard enough in the four days because you're having to do some work on the fifth day because I know how

59:49 much work that everybody has gone and and we all agree in fact my next call after this is that we're going to do the

59:56 resource planning for next month so that we know that that we have so We although

1:00:02 they must track 32 hours we only actually track 20 25 hours of billable

1:00:08 time and they have seven hours per week of internal resource so we know how much

1:00:15 time we've got from our team and we know how much work we've sold on a monthly

1:00:20 basis so yeah but I think the recruitment and retention is definitely

1:00:26 a a key thing with our 4 day week okay now how do you rewire workflows to

1:00:32 maintain client results when it comes to 4 days work week yeah so I mean a lot of

1:00:37 our team are what you might consider to be a back office function so they don't

1:00:43 have client contact uh on a monthly basis maybe they're given the job of you

1:00:49 must produce four blog posts or you must produce eight PR links or you know there

1:00:56 there are targets that they must that they must hit so whether they do this work at 6:00 a.m

1:01:03 12:00 p.m or 6 pm doesn't make any difference to my to my customer base right right for the client contact

1:01:12 employees right so we always have uh two people that can do every job within our

1:01:19 business so one team will work Monday to Thursday the other team will work

1:01:26 Tuesday to Friday so we have five days coverage from our team it's just that

1:01:33 that the only Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday the complete team is is is at

1:01:38 work so to speak so yeah we we just we just we just sat down we had a think about it we totally understand that i

1:01:46 mean we run PPC campaigns that that change every day yes the client couldn't

1:01:52 contact me on a Friday and say "We have a big offer going live on Saturday can you check and nobody responds like we

1:01:59 have to have fiveday coverage for our customers but that doesn't mean that it's that the staff have to provide

1:02:06 fiveday coverage and this is again just down to SOPs and knowledge sharing and

1:02:12 that handover from from your co to your colleague on the Thursday evening and

1:02:17 yeah I I I I it works for us okay now time management is critical in agencies

Time Management: What Are Effective Time Management Techniques?

1:02:24 what tool or framework do you use to prioritize high impact task versus busy work

1:02:30 yes so um everything is is measured and managed so that goes without saying um we use a

1:02:40 software tool called teamwork to to uh track our time against projects

1:02:46 project every task is assigned is assigned a a time period and we track

1:02:52 against that on a monthly basis of course it's not always perfect

1:02:57 i remember the days of when I was making websites and I would I would make a

1:03:02 change on the server and nothing happens for one hour two hours you can change

1:03:08 DNS records on a domain nothing happens for 24 hours so we're not

1:03:13 like very very rigid we're just very rigid um so I think

1:03:21 that breaking down the task into chunks of of of the elements that make up the

1:03:27 complete task and then splitting that across the team and then seeing how long

1:03:33 I think sometimes where we try and get more more productivity out of our team is making them aware that their

1:03:39 colleague cannot do their job until you have done your job so now you are holding up the whole the whole machine

1:03:46 is waiting for you to do your job and that gives the pressure that you don't

1:03:52 want to let your teammates down so hopefully that gets them working quicker

1:03:58 um but at the same time I I I'll be honest when we take on a new

1:04:04 employee 20% of them don't make it past three or six months because they can't

1:04:10 handle this way of working like it's it's very self-managed it's very

1:04:15 measured it's it's it's hard it's it's it's you know we we achieve a lot in those four days and it is it's down to

1:04:23 the time management techniques that we've implemented that we managed to get it done

1:04:29 now on a personal level how do I manage my time uh I'm actually a big believer

1:04:37 in something called the Pomodoro technique so I we could talk about this

1:04:42 for for hours but the the concept is so it's from the 1980s so it's not uh like

1:04:50 some kind of modern new fangled thing but effectively I work for 25 minutes

1:04:57 and then I take a five minute break i work for 25 minutes I take a five minute

1:05:02 break every couple of hours I'll take half an hour break and the way my mind

1:05:08 works and this works for me it won't work for everyone is like sprints so

1:05:14 like I will time block that 25 minutes in this 25 minutes I must do this and

1:05:21 then I'll just get it done right without thinking I'll just I'll just get it done

1:05:26 and then I'll take a five minute break go make a coffee stretch my legs walk upstairs because I work in my basement

1:05:32 um then come down and I already know the next 25 minute task and then I'll get

1:05:37 through it and then after two hours I'll go and get some fresh air maybe I'll go

1:05:43 to the shop maybe I'll have my lunch and just just keep just keep that that process going that way you're pomodoro

1:05:52 mixed with uh time blocking so that you know exactly what you're going to do on

1:05:59 every hour of the day i believe that is the way to do it

1:06:07 uh okay now any advice for agency owner who are

1:06:12 hesit hesitant to implement such changes uh if you don't somebody else will and

1:06:21 your staff will go and work with them like the you know we're intelligent people like we're not like trust your

1:06:27 staff measure their tasks measure their output like if you are measuring your

1:06:34 team on attendance you're tracking the wrong data points i measure my team on output

1:06:41 so I know that if I'm measuring output I'm going to be a lot more just because I'm sat at my desk from 9 till 6 doesn't

1:06:49 mean like I could be watching reals all day i could be like doom scrolling Tik

1:06:54 Tok whereas as long as

1:06:59 you've thought about it read some of the podcasts that I've already done on 4 day

1:07:05 week and the implementation challenges that we've had reach out to me on LinkedIn i'm always happy to to share my

1:07:11 opinion on on how and the challenges that we've faced um hire a consultant it

1:07:17 won't be me i have a busy enough job already but the hire a consultant that can help you implement these changes and

1:07:26 and I promise you that you'll see better output and more loyalty from your team

Quickfire Questions: What Rapid-Fire Questions Should Agencies Consider?

1:07:32 okay now all right Gareth let's wrap up with some uh quickfire questions and

1:07:38 you're just going to answer first thing that comes in your mind are you ready yeah of course okay one SEO myth you

1:07:45 want to debunk uh it's dead it's not dead people are

1:07:50 always going to be looking for stuff favorite tool for link building

1:07:56 buzz stream because I can see who opened my emails and which which uh email title worked okay and best piece of business

1:08:03 advice you have ever received always be selling just because you're busy today doesn't mean you'll be busy

1:08:09 tomorrow three customers cancel in a month and your team is is broken so yeah

1:08:15 always be always be selling okay one book or podcast you would recommend

1:08:21 other than the Agency Insider Show um if I'm honest with you I don't I don't listen to or read business podcasts or

1:08:28 books I prefer to remove my brain from business and I listen to a lot of

1:08:34 history podcasts because it just helps me balance my work brain to to my still

1:08:41 learning but not about work okay uh what's next for marketing

1:08:47 signals uh hopefully more of the same um but

1:08:52 hopefully also sort this sales team out get ourselves some uh above organic

1:08:59 growth like we grow organically because we're good at our jobs but it would be good to maybe add 50% more revenue over

1:09:05 the next sort of financial periods and uh one day maybe exit or join with a

1:09:13 bigger business i mean I'm uh I'm only in my mid-4s so I think I've got a few years of work left yet but I would love

1:09:19 to work with uh another talented agency that we merge and come together and we

1:09:24 can do some great things together all right uh this has been an insightful

Final Advice for Agencies: What Final Tips Do You Have for Agencies?

1:09:30 conversation Gareth and thanks for sharing your wisdom on SEO link building and productivity and of course running

1:09:36 an agency uh before we wrap up any final piece of advice for agencies wanting to

1:09:42 thrive in 2025 yeah always be learning don't think you

1:09:47 know everything and if unsure get external help like there's no point you

1:09:54 doing it badly where for a couple of thousand dollars you can get an expert in that will train your team on how to

1:10:00 do it right right right right uh for everyone listening if you find this

Connect with Gareth: How to Connect with Gareth?

1:10:05 valuable don't forget to subscribe to the agency insider show and if you are an agency owner looking to scale your

1:10:11 SEO services through white label solutions reach out to us at page traffic gareth one final question where

1:10:18 can our listeners connect with you absolutely so uh you can find me on LinkedIn uh Gareth Hy uh you can Google

1:10:25 my name i'd like to think I'm the the main person on the front page of Google uh or Facebook or email um if you can't

1:10:34 find me uh I've done my job wrong and you shouldn't be in this job

1:10:40 all right all right awesome thanks again Gareth and thank you to our audience for tuning in and once again thank you

1:10:48 thanks Navi good to be here see you next time